AWA ALPA Thread 11/11 to 11/17

[Richard]

Just a reminder-- do not make it personal.

 

[prechilill]

A tremendous start: Prater-free

"AWA MEC CHAIRMAN’S LETTER

November 10, 2007





Fellow Pilots:



Following a letter that I sent to Captain Prater earlier this week, the MEC convened in session on Wednesday to discuss many of our outstanding issues with Captain Prater and his legal advisors. We asked Captain Prater point blank whether he would present the list to Doug Parker. The answer did not meet the expectations of our MEC. As a result, the AWA MEC made the decision to pass a resolution to insist that Captain Prater present the list to management as required by the Transition Agreement, ALPA Merger Policy and the Sept 20, 2007 ALPA Executive Council resolution. This decision was not made lightly. After discussing this and other issues with Captain Prater via teleconference for nearly two hours on Wednesday to no avail, the AWA MEC also made the decision to not attend the meeting scheduled by him in Virginia for yesterday and today.



The AWA MEC also instructed me to relay to the AAA MEC Chairman that this decision was not taken out of a desire to avoid or frustrate the meeting with the AAA MEC, but rather out of our continuing frustration with Captain Prater. As I previously stated, we have been trying for months to get someone to the negotiating table from the AAA MEC so we could complete joint negotiations. It is clear to both MECs and most pilots that we are rapidly approaching a point of no return where we need to do something or we will lose our negotiating window of opportunity.



Yesterday, in light of our decision, the AAA MEC Chairman and I started discussing what would likely happen next. We discussed options for getting our respective pilot leaders together at some point in the future in the best environment possible to foster a frank and substantive discussion between the MECs. We discovered that we both were very concerned about the fact that we have too many cooks in the kitchen and that this was making it difficult to get to the bottom of all the outstanding issues. The bottom line is that we both realize that if we don’t take the initiative to get our pilot leaders together in a room, free from distractions of all kinds and discuss whatever is on their minds, that we will always wonder if we missed the opportunity to find a solution.



After consulting with our outside merger counsel and the elected representatives, Jack and I have decided to schedule both our MECs to meet next week in DEN in closed session without any ALPA attorneys and national officers. One of our goals is to see if we can still save the two weeks of negotiations scheduled for the beginning of December. As I stated above, we should all recognize that the economic window may be starting to close and with the stock price depressed due to “labor overhang†and accusations of extortion by United States Senators, it is clear that management needs to start pulling some rabbits of their collective hats.



The grounds rules for the proposed “Prater-free†meeting are simple – only the MEC members and officers and communication chairs. No guns or knifes, no staff, no lawyers, no national officers, no EVPs and especially no Prater.



As I said before, your leadership recognizes that solely conceding or mitigating parts of the award would not solve the ratification issues, as it would only shift “no†votes from the East to the West. Any solutions we explore would need to generate “yes†votes on both the East and the West.



It is time to get this merger airborne for labor and we are sitting in the Captain’s seat. This meeting may amount to nothing, but if we don’t take the opportunity to meet free from distractions, we may always wonder if we missed the chance to bring this thing home. Remember, as always, the rank and file pilots of the East and West will get the final say at the ballot box no matter what we come up with.



As always, please continue to fly safely and securely.



Fraternally,



Captain John McIlvenna

Chairman, AWA MEC

 

[end_of_alpa]

A tremendous start: Prater-free

"AWA MEC CHAIRMAN’S LETTER

November 10, 2007





Fellow Pilots:



Following a letter that I sent to Captain Prater earlier this week, the MEC convened in session on Wednesday to discuss many of our outstanding issues with Captain Prater and his legal advisors. We asked Captain Prater point blank whether he would present the list to Doug Parker. The answer did not meet the expectations of our MEC. As a result, the AWA MEC made the decision to pass a resolution to insist that Captain Prater present the list to management as required by the Transition Agreement, ALPA Merger Policy and the Sept 20, 2007 ALPA Executive Council resolution. This decision was not made lightly. After discussing this and other issues with Captain Prater via teleconference for nearly two hours on Wednesday to no avail, the AWA MEC also made the decision to not attend the meeting scheduled by him in Virginia for yesterday and today.



The AWA MEC also instructed me to relay to the AAA MEC Chairman that this decision was not taken out of a desire to avoid or frustrate the meeting with the AAA MEC, but rather out of our continuing frustration with Captain Prater. As I previously stated, we have been trying for months to get someone to the negotiating table from the AAA MEC so we could complete joint negotiations. It is clear to both MECs and most pilots that we are rapidly approaching a point of no return where we need to do something or we will lose our negotiating window of opportunity.



Yesterday, in light of our decision, the AAA MEC Chairman and I started discussing what would likely happen next. We discussed options for getting our respective pilot leaders together at some point in the future in the best environment possible to foster a frank and substantive discussion between the MECs. We discovered that we both were very concerned about the fact that we have too many cooks in the kitchen and that this was making it difficult to get to the bottom of all the outstanding issues. The bottom line is that we both realize that if we don’t take the initiative to get our pilot leaders together in a room, free from distractions of all kinds and discuss whatever is on their minds, that we will always wonder if we missed the opportunity to find a solution.



After consulting with our outside merger counsel and the elected representatives, Jack and I have decided to schedule both our MECs to meet next week in DEN in closed session without any ALPA attorneys and national officers. One of our goals is to see if we can still save the two weeks of negotiations scheduled for the beginning of December. As I stated above, we should all recognize that the economic window may be starting to close and with the stock price depressed due to “labor overhang†and accusations of extortion by United States Senators, it is clear that management needs to start pulling some rabbits of their collective hats.



The grounds rules for the proposed “Prater-free†meeting are simple – only the MEC members and officers and communication chairs. No guns or knifes, no staff, no lawyers, no national officers, no EVPs and especially no Prater.



As I said before, your leadership recognizes that solely conceding or mitigating parts of the award would not solve the ratification issues, as it would only shift “no†votes from the East to the West. Any solutions we explore would need to generate “yes†votes on both the East and the West.



It is time to get this merger airborne for labor and we are sitting in the Captain’s seat. This meeting may amount to nothing, but if we don’t take the opportunity to meet free from distractions, we may always wonder if we missed the chance to bring this thing home. Remember, as always, the rank and file pilots of the East and West will get the final say at the ballot box no matter what we come up with.



As always, please continue to fly safely and securely.



Fraternally,



Captain John McIlvenna

Chairman, AWA MEC

"John" says that "It is clear to both MECs and most pilots that we are rapidly approaching a point of no return where we need to do something or we will lose our negotiating window of opportunity."

Sorry "Jack and John" but unfortunately that point has come and gone quite some time ago.

Management has acknowledged it in as much. See the latest Parker/East and Kirby/West pilot meetings.

"Jack" no longer represents the majority of the East pilots.

"John" restates that "As I said before, your leadership recognizes that solely conceding or mitigating parts of the award would not solve the ratification issues, as it would only shift “no†votes from the East to the West." Any solutions we explore would need to generate “yes†votes on both the East and the West."

"John and Jack ".... discovered that we both were very concerned about the fact that we have too many cooks in the kitchen and that this was making it difficult to get to the bottom of all the outstanding issues. The bottom line is that we both realize that if we don’t take the initiative to get our pilot leaders together in a room, free from distractions of all kinds and discuss whatever is on their minds, that we will always wonder if we missed the opportunity to find a solution."

I do not know where these two "LEADERS" have been the past year and a half but I believe there is only "ONE" issue on the front burner of everybody's stove...and it's already reached the boiling point. Can you "guess" what that might be???

And there is the "Catch 22", unfortunately. After last weeks "no show", DEN will be as much of a waste of everyones time as it will be for all the other "meetings". And here is the crux of the matter...MORE BACKDOOR CLOSED MEETING DEALS! How many more of these "meetings" can we take?

"John" reminds us to "Remember, as always, the rank and file pilots of the East and West will get the final say at the ballot box no matter what we come up with."

John got one thing right. How much truer a statement could be made than that. The right of the pilots to "CHOOSE". What a novel and profound concept.

Let John's "whipsaw" threats and "scorched earth" policies against USAPA begin. They can be found here. John is certainly a "unifying" Leader. See his letter at http://usairlinepilots.org/AWA_MEC_letter.htm

Happy Holidays!!! From the US Airways East MEC and AWA MEC....the gift that keeps on giving!!

 

[ALPO NO MO]

Let John's "whipsaw" threats and "scorched earth" policies against USAPA begin. They can be found here. John is certainly a "unifying" Leader. See his letter at http://usairlinepilots.org/AWA_MEC_letter.htm

Happy Holidays!!! From the US Airways East MEC and AWA MEC....the gift that keeps on giving!!
[/quote]
The following is from John McIlvenna to his PHX pilots.

“After consulting with our outside merger counsel and the elected
representatives, Jack and I have decided to schedule both our MECs to
meet next week in DEN in closed session without any ALPA attorneys and
national officers. One of our goals is to see if we can still save the
two weeks of negotiations scheduled for the beginning of December. As I
stated above, we should all recognize that _the economic window may be
starting to close and with the stock price depressed due to “labor
overhangâ€￾_ and accusations of extortion by United States Senators, it is
clear that management needs to start pulling some rabbits of their
collective hatsâ€￾.

Let’s see now. The economic window is starting to close; oil is
approaching $100/barrel. There is talk of the recession word, the Fed is
worried, the housing market is in the dumps, and we have this terrible
contract…or do we. Read below.

*From the Transformation Agreement Document – LOA 93*

*Minimum Aircraft:*

* *

* */If the Company is under Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection during the
duration of this Agreement, the provisions of the July 2002
Restructuring Agreement as amended by Letter of Agreement #84 regarding
Minimum Aircraft (including the daily utilization rate measured monthly)
will not apply during the pendency of such Chapter 11 case, and the
number of minimum aircraft will be reestablished one year after the
implementation of a confirmed plan of reorganization in such Chapter 11
case at the lesser of: (x) 279 total aircraft (excluding SJs), or (y)
the number of total aircraft then operated by the Company (excluding
SJs) less ten percent (10%), rounded to the nearest aircraft. The daily
utilization rate measured/

/monthly will be re-established one year after the implementation of a
confirmed plan of reorganization in such Chapter 11 case at the average
daily utilization rate for the prior twelve months less ten percent
(10%). The Association further agrees that the provision regarding
Minimum Block Hours of the July 2002 Restructuring Agreement as amended
by Letter of Agreement #84 will be eliminated. Other productivity
provisions of Letter of Agreement#84 contingent on such Minimum Aircraft
and Minimum Block Hour provisions will remain in full force and effect
as amended by this Agreement as if such provisions were satisfied./

We have a minimum fleet size requirement. We are very near it if not at
it already. So any cuts or furloughs have to go out West. They might be
able to squeeze a few more bodies out of our operation but we are flying
90 to 95 per month. We are understaffed as it is and we have
retirements. So before you grab at some TA with money and more vacation
consider the following. LOA 93 will go away. So will the minimum fleet
size, the Nicolau award will come with the new TA and when the furloughs
start the will cut deeply into the East side. Or you can Vote NO and
stay on LOA 93 and stay employed. A furlough of 500 or over will get
into pilots with 20 years on the East side. Voting no results in little
or no furloughs on the East side, and if there are furloughs they are
likely to be small and short-lived.

Doug parker has said that industry consolidation will occur in the next
downturn, which could be right around the corner. Even if a 500 or 750
pilot furloughs would affect you much, if you are senior enough, that is
the starting point for the slotting with United. It is in every East
pilots interest, senior and junior, to keep our list intact to the
greatest extent possible. Keeping our East seniority list intact
protects the advancement opportunities of senior and junior alike.

Some might argue that this is a cruel thing to foster on the West. I
disagree; we are not fostering it on anyone. The West claims to have
expectations; we have a contract. A legal binding document in black and
white paid for with the blood and guts or our pilots, paid for by 1789
furloughed pilots, paid for by the loss of our pensions, paid for with
the worst pay rates in the industry. We have a terrible contract but it
has some small protections and we don’t have to sell our souls for a
small raise. If we wait and we have an opportunity to vote for USAPA we
can have our attrition, our date of hire, and the money too.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Let John's "whipsaw" threats and "scorched earth" policies against USAPA begin. They can be found here. John is certainly a "unifying" Leader. See his letter at http://usairlinepilots.org/AWA_MEC_letter.htm

Happy Holidays!!! From the US Airways East MEC and AWA MEC....the gift that keeps on giving!!

The following is from John McIlvenna to his PHX pilots.

“After consulting with our outside merger counsel and the elected
representatives, Jack and I have decided to schedule both our MECs to
meet next week in DEN in closed session without any ALPA attorneys and
national officers. One of our goals is to see if we can still save the
two weeks of negotiations scheduled for the beginning of December. As I
stated above, we should all recognize that _the economic window may be
starting to close and with the stock price depressed due to “labor
overhangâ€￾_ and accusations of extortion by United States Senators, it is
clear that management needs to start pulling some rabbits of their
collective hatsâ€￾.

Let’s see now. The economic window is starting to close; oil is
approaching $100/barrel. There is talk of the recession word, the Fed is
worried, the housing market is in the dumps, and we have this terrible
contract…or do we. Read below.

*From the Transformation Agreement Document – LOA 93*

*Minimum Aircraft:*

* *

* */If the Company is under Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection during the
duration of this Agreement, the provisions of the July 2002
Restructuring Agreement as amended by Letter of Agreement #84 regarding
Minimum Aircraft (including the daily utilization rate measured monthly)
will not apply during the pendency of such Chapter 11 case, and the
number of minimum aircraft will be reestablished one year after the
implementation of a confirmed plan of reorganization in such Chapter 11
case at the lesser of: (x) 279 total aircraft (excluding SJs), or (y)
the number of total aircraft then operated by the Company (excluding
SJs) less ten percent (10%), rounded to the nearest aircraft. The daily
utilization rate measured/

/monthly will be re-established one year after the implementation of a
confirmed plan of reorganization in such Chapter 11 case at the average
daily utilization rate for the prior twelve months less ten percent
(10%). The Association further agrees that the provision regarding
Minimum Block Hours of the July 2002 Restructuring Agreement as amended
by Letter of Agreement #84 will be eliminated. Other productivity
provisions of Letter of Agreement#84 contingent on such Minimum Aircraft
and Minimum Block Hour provisions will remain in full force and effect
as amended by this Agreement as if such provisions were satisfied./

We have a minimum fleet size requirement. We are very near it if not at
it already. So any cuts or furloughs have to go out West. They might be
able to squeeze a few more bodies out of our operation but we are flying
90 to 95 per month. We are understaffed as it is and we have
retirements. So before you grab at some TA with money and more vacation
consider the following. LOA 93 will go away. So will the minimum fleet
size, the Nicolau award will come with the new TA and when the furloughs
start the will cut deeply into the East side. Or you can Vote NO and
stay on LOA 93 and stay employed. A furlough of 500 or over will get
into pilots with 20 years on the East side. Voting no results in little
or no furloughs on the East side, and if there are furloughs they are
likely to be small and short-lived.

Doug parker has said that industry consolidation will occur in the next
downturn, which could be right around the corner. Even if a 500 or 750
pilot furloughs would affect you much, if you are senior enough, that is
the starting point for the slotting with United. It is in every East
pilots interest, senior and junior, to keep our list intact to the
greatest extent possible. Keeping our East seniority list intact
protects the advancement opportunities of senior and junior alike.

Some might argue that this is a cruel thing to foster on the West. I
disagree; we are not fostering it on anyone. The West claims to have
expectations; we have a contract. A legal binding document in black and
white paid for with the blood and guts or our pilots, paid for by 1789
furloughed pilots, paid for by the loss of our pensions, paid for with
the worst pay rates in the industry. We have a terrible contract but it
has some small protections and we don’t have to sell our souls for a
small raise. If we wait and we have an opportunity to vote for USAPA we
can have our attrition, our date of hire, and the money too.

It's really astonishing how many of the others have failed to understand this simple "fact". You are absolutely spot on. And this is what I've been saying this whole time....possesion is 9/10ths of the law. Voting in a T/A might very well cost you your job in six months to a year. And that means ALL the pilots on the EAST, not just the middle to bottom. So news hire coming to the "east" side will have jobs, advancements and furlough protections while the West contract is "open" and in any event has no such protections. Remember, the company's of the opinion that LOA 93 is still the prevailing contract.

The pilots on the East (including the new hires which, if I were them, would NOT bid the West equipment if offered, for this very reason) can preserve they positions and lock in their career advancement by doing one thing and one thing only...vote USAPA. Skywest and Colgan...much smaller pilot groups than we are certainly know what's the best for them in the long-term. We certainly do too!! Never forget that.

Very well put. Now be prepared to get "flamed".

 

[BoeingBoy]

*From the Transformation Agreement Document – LOA 93*

*Minimum Aircraft:*

FWIW, that was superceded by the transition agreement although it says basically the same thing. West can go down to about 120 airplanes and East down to about 202. That's 322 combined for the minimum, versus the 359 combined airplanes operated at the end of 3Q07 (37 above the minimum). The latest quarterly report doesn't break the fleet down to East and West, so going back to the 2Q07 report the numbers were 132 on the West side (12 above the minimum) and 226 on the East side (24 above the minimum). Changes since then that I know of are E-190 deliveries and 737's being returned.

Jim

 

[ALPO NO MO]

What's ALPA done for [to] me lately?



ALPA’s position on open skies.


(from another web-board)


Open Skies

We continue to support our alliances in Congress in opposition to this agreement, as the DOT and White House want it to happen. The FAA Reauthorization Bill (see above) has some language in it protecting the current foreign ownership rules. The President hasn’t threatened a veto on this issue alone, however, it is expected he will want language relaxing foreign ownership limits. Rep. Oberstar has made it clear to the EU aviation community that there will be no modifications to foreign ownership restrictions. Negotiations are scheduled for next year, after the first stage of the Open Skies agreement takes effect in March 2008. This issue remains the single greatest threat to our careers. We will update you as this develops.

Your continued support through the ALPA-PAC and UPPACs is of vital importance if our legislative agenda is to be successfully carried forward. We again wish to thank those who have recently signed up for ALPA-PAC and UPPAC. Your Legislative Committee extends its continued gratitude to those longstanding participants and contributors to our legislative effort.

In closing, remember that your participation and involvement does make a difference! This statement applies to our legislative, strike preparedness and daily business YOUR union volunteer members work on your behalf.



In the early 90's British Airways and US Airways attempted to form an alliance. There would have been considerable investment, up to 49% of US Airways and there would have been a large amount of wet lease flying for US crews across the pond. BA would have gained access to the entire US marketplace, instead of just a few gateways.


After the politicians killed this plan, spearheaded by Robert Crandall of American, American and British Airways got together and are still planning an American / BA alliance. When asked about his flip flop on the issue of foreign investment and partnerships between US and foreign carriers he laughed and said "That's because it was good for US Air and this is because it's good for American."


ALPA feels the same way. What could be good for US Airways is not good for United, Delta, Northwest and American. They don't like the idea that overnight a foreign carrier could have access to the entire US Airways route system and the synergies that could entail. Weather or not code share or joint venture with a foreign carrier is good for US Airways is not the question. It's what do United and the others think about it. US Airways with its extensive East and West route system represents the greatest amount of domestic capacity in the US with the least international overlap of any US carrier. We are the partner of that delivers the most bang for the Euro.


ALPA is not going to look out for the interests of US Airways pilots. They didn't do it in the early 90's with British Airways and they won't do it if open skies present opportunities that could benefit all US Airways employees and shareholders. So, maybe the question is; "What has ALPA done for me lately'? Maybe it's; "What are they planning to do to me in the future?", when open skies talks and negotiations between the EU and US start in March 08

 

[exB717Flyer]

If we wait and we have an opportunity to vote for USAPA we
can have our attrition, our date of hire, and the money too.

Wow, if USAPA can do all that will they cure cancer as well? Cause you know they'd never promise anything they can't deliver.

 

[nostradamus]

Wow, if USAPA can do all that will they cure cancer as well? Cause you know they'd never promise anything they can't deliver.

exB717Flyer
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Posted on: May 11 2005, 10:18 AM


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QUOTE(Winglet @ May 9 2005, 03:38 AM)
I suppose that could be the case if US Air employees, like TWA employees, sign-away their contractural rights in order to facilitate the deal.
*
exb717
Funny how this urban legend keeps resurfacing. The saying "History is written by the victors" comes to mind. The TWA MEC gave up our successorship clauses under threat of abrogation of our entire contract. Carty and the judge would've made the sale go through regardless and didn't need any "facilitation" from the TWA employees. The Section 1113 bankruptcy proceedings were unprecedented and our MEC under duress -- it seemed like the right thing to do at the time especially since our ALPA-supplied attorney adviced us to do it.

BTW I've just finished my first year at AWA so I'm a very interested party in how this all goes down.

 

[EastUS]

A tremendous start: Prater-free

"AWA MEC CHAIRMAN’S LETTER

The grounds rules for the proposed “Prater-freeâ€￾ meeting are simple – only the MEC members and officers and communication chairs. No guns or knifes, no staff, no lawyers, no national officers, no EVPs and especially no Prater.


Chairman, AWA MEC

Hah!...I suspected as much: "No guns or knifes" :blink: What fun's this latest Alpo snoozefest gonna' be then? "Ladies and Gentlemen...Welcome to a Harrumphing Festival like none other"... I'm not entirely sure what to make of this latest. It could be that the Alpoids are at least attempting to talk...or, it could well be this now mighty "no Prater" stuff's a buncha' BS disinformation set forth to deflect some focused anger off Alpo Notional, and thusly, attempt to reduce decertification likelihood somewhat. I'll somewhat cynically think that last case to be most likely. If Alpo Notional's running this show...their best bet's to stage the play, then back off the set..."Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain"/etc

Points of interest that I picked out:

The magical mystery/best contract in all history seems to not be any top notion, any longer (if it ever was)...after all of six whole months since Nic. I'm hardly surprised that any Alpoid would start surrender negotiations towards management early though. Whew Folks!....if those pesky east people had just bent over for Nic...no doubt whatesoever that the world's best contract would have been garnered in the insignificant time since Nic...or, would the east have just been complete, and utter idiots to have bought off on that unimaginable stupidity, only to additonally suffer under no noteworthy contractual enhancements......the readers must decide.

It's a cute touch that the west Alpo clowns are now playing the same "We ain't gonna' do the scheduled JNC meetings thing!" that they so derided the east for. This whole Alpo show's just plain pathetic. "Prater free"...."no EVPs and especially no Prater".....yeah....right. Is it just me?..or do others wonder what the future holds for the people staffing the west/eacxt MECs, if Alpo does or doesn't survive? ...Wonder who the designated "made men" are that would/will move up to Alpo Notional positions...or, if that's yet to be determined...based on current harrumphing.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

There is a difference between not doing the JNC thing and not doing the Prater blue ribbon arm twisting meeting. The west is still participating in the JNC (where this belongs), while the east is not. Admirable spin job though.

 

[EastUS]

There is a difference between not doing the JNC thing and not doing the Prater blue ribbon arm twisting meeting. The west is still participating in the JNC (where this belongs), while the east is not. Admirable spin job though.

"spin job"? You've completely missed the point of any posted notions of mine then. I find both local sections of Alpo, and the corrupt, and bloated entity as a whole, to be equally contemptable. if you've some fantastic notions that the MEC out west's any less of a politicized body of self serving Alpo inepts than found elsewhere.....you're paying insufficient attention.

PS: If you've not the innocence and naievete of a newborn....you've simply got to be joking if you think that whatever might transpire at this next magic non "arm twisting" meeting/harrumph fest is "Prater free"....just because your boy's claiming such.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Wow, if USAPA can do all that will they cure cancer as well? Cause you know they'd never promise anything they can't deliver.

Get ready....you're about to find out.

 

[end_of_alpa]

FWIW, that was superceded by the transition agreement although it says basically the same thing. West can go down to about 120 airplanes and East down to about 202. That's 322 combined for the minimum, versus the 359 combined airplanes operated at the end of 3Q07 (37 above the minimum). The latest quarterly report doesn't break the fleet down to East and West, so going back to the 2Q07 report the numbers were 132 on the West side (12 above the minimum) and 226 on the East side (24 above the minimum). Changes since then that I know of are E-190 deliveries and 737's being returned.

Jim

Jim: The transition agreement is all but a forgone paper trail conclusion if no t/a is agreed to. In fact, the expiration date has passed as far as the company is concerned as of last year. They are simply participating in good faith and it really doesn't cost them anything to participate....so far. The company can do NOTHING if no agreement is reached. Without an t/a there is no transition agreement.

Stand by for more.

 

[sharktooth]

Wow, if USAPA can do all that will they cure cancer as well? Cause you know they'd never promise anything they can't deliver.

and if those pesky easties would embrace the "nic", ALPO could deliver the best contract, evah! and cure cancer!