AWA + USAir = Total Mistake

[freedom]

First, it is not disrespectful to talk about airline accidents. Second, I said nothing about the credibility of the pilots. Third, the facts and circumstances of the accidents are irrelevant to the context of the discussion. Lastly, while it's noble for you to defend your fellow pilots unfortunate fate, I think your passion is misplaced since I was only responding to another posters claim that US Airways was "top notch" airline. I pointed out FACTS that say otherwise, nothing more nothing less.

By your logic we should never speak of anything horrifying even if it makes a point. I have heard it all from east people, been called just about everything, been accused of being all kinds of things, all because an arbitrator makes a decision, which I had no control over. You tell me who needs some help. And you have the nerved to tell me I should be ashamed of myself? Right back at yaw.

With that said, I was not trying to offend anyones honor (deceased or not), and if I did I appologize.

As a former America West worker I would like to apologize for the comments written by call sign cactus if he truly is a member of our former company .Please don’t let a nameless ,faceless individual sitting behind a computer god knows where, to paint the outstanding , honest , Compassionate people I work with in a bad light .

Sincerely
Freedom


p.s callsign catus , you sound like your under alot of stress , maybe you need a weekend getaway

 

[mga707]

Even though AWA was on the opposite side of the country and was smaller, there were some similarities. We both had bankrupcies, many furloughed, and management teams that cared absolutely zilch about the airline. However AWA had one outstanding difference to deal with that USAir didn't. Southwest Airlines. They arrived in Phx in 1984, so for the past 23 out of 24 years AWA has had to literly fight for every dime.

Just for the sake of factual accuracy:
Southwest started service in PHX on January 31, 1982--the same day LAS and SAN were also added to the system.

America West's first day of scheduled operations was August 1, 1983.

WN was in PHX for a year and a half before HP started.

Republic was the 'hub carrier' at PHX back in the early '80s, and the rapid expansion of both WN and HP were prime reasons why they had abandoned their PHX hub by 1984.

 

[Callsign_Cactus]

Really, why don't you watch the latest CLT Crew news video on theHub when our VP talks about the merger and makes the following comment: "US Airways knows the inevitability of what would have happened if the merger did not happen." It's about time someone from our management stopped coddling the east and started to show leadership. Also, it seems like management is always in the denial & pacification mode when they should step-up and show some leadership by putting action behind their words.

Um, US paid Alabama to go away. Lakefield had TAG waiting in the wings. and US was making money operationally as well as paying off their debts. One of the biggest investors was so entangled they could not forego a quarter trillion in cash flow.

HP, on the other hand, by your own CEO statements, had 30 days to Zanzibar with no investment opportunities in sight.

But, go with your feelings because that is all you got.

 

[Pi brat]

Really, why don't you watch the latest CLT Crew news video on theHub when our VP talks about the merger and makes the following comment: "US Airways knows the inevitability of what would have happened if the merger did not happen." It's about time someone from our management stopped coddling the east and started to show leadership. Also, it seems like management is always in the denial & pacification mode when they should step-up and show some leadership by putting action behind their words.

You need to go back and view the ones where Scott and Doug said that AWA would almost certainly have filed CH 11, returned aircraft and furloughed pilots. You guys love to point out when they say US Air was going away, but blow them off when they say that.

 

[EastUS]

It's about time someone from our management stopped coddling the east and started to show leadership.

You've some misplaced notion that management cares more about yourself and the locals out west than they do about the overall situation. Don't further delude yourself.

It might also be noted that this operation's a virtual trainwreck as things are. Exactly what draconian measures do you imagine management to be interested in pursuing against the operational sector generating most of the revenue? And, in these circumstances....they would seek to further alienate the east in order to suit west feelings...ummmm.....WHY?

 

[Callsign_Cactus]

I know, I have heard Doug say that for the last two years and have never denied AWA may have been forced into BK, much like UAL, NWA, DAL, NWA...but that is a far cry from disappearing. That is what YOU GUYS keep blowing off - denial, denial.

You need to go back and view the ones where Scott and Doug said that AWA would almost certainly have filed CH 11, returned aircraft and furloughed pilots. You guys love to point out when they say US Air was going away, but blow them off when they say that.

 

[b737fo]

The truth is stranger than fiction. You hoist this on time stuff like you are comparing apples to apples. You are not. Let me ask you this; does AWA have acars? No, you don't. Just as SWA has no acars (funny...they are always ranked high for on time performance...how do they do it!). So your out and in times are lets say...fictional. Further, ever try and run an on time airline in the northeast? Good luck. The very fact that your skewed numbers are close to ours underscores your lack of performance.

Anyone in the "know" realizes that your post is a total fabrication. Given a level playing field, i.e. both airlines utilizing acars, and similar operating environment, the east is beating your pants off.

Well I guess you are not one of those people in the "know" then. Look at the same stats with other airlines that run a northeast operation and you can draw your conclusions. I am not saying that AWA was a stellar performer I was just responding to the accusation that AWA was the so called bottom. Like I said before, this whole airline needs service improvements system wide and it is time to look forward instead of rehashing who saved who and which airline was better.

 

[Pi brat]

I know, I have heard Doug say that for the last two years and have never denied AWA may have been forced into BK, much like UAL, NWA, DAL, NWA...but that is a far cry from disappearing. That is what YOU GUYS keep blowing off - denial, denial.

That is what gets me about some of your posts and most of AWA320s. You have NEVER heard me blow off the fact that US Air may have gone ch 7. I was looking at my options in case it did. The thing is my friend, we didn't go ch 7 and AWA didn't go ch 11, so it really doesn't matter what might of happened. We both were helped with outside financing. Nic should never have considered that in his decision because neither company was doing so well. Trying to say which one would die first would require a crystal ball. If US Air died as many times as I heard they were going to, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

 

[Be Careful What You Wish For.]

I believe when the merger went down...USAir..ways had 90 days cash, AWA less than 30 days cash.

Wake up .....BOD.

I believe we were dead and gone without this merger. If they went belly up first who would have stepped in?

 

[Callsign_Cactus]

I agree with most of what you said, but I disagree, and so did the arbitrator and 2 neutrals, that chp 11 vs. chp 7 is a wash. They felt there was a difference in career expectations, which is one of the tenants in ALPA merger policy. I've said all along I'm not too fond of the award because there are no fences, but I do strongly feel that a ratio/relative seniority integration (preserving seniority) is the only fair method considering all factors including the disparate age of the Company's and respective pilot workforce.

That is what gets me about some of your posts and most of AWA320s. You have NEVER heard me blow off the fact that US Air may have gone ch 7. I was looking at my options in case it did. The thing is my friend, we didn't go ch 7 and AWA didn't go ch 11, so it really doesn't matter what might of happened. We both were helped with outside financing. Nic should never have considered that in his decision because neither company was doing so well. Trying to say which one would die first would require a crystal ball. If US Air died as many times as I heard they were going to, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

 

[USstew23]

Yep America West should have allowed Continental to buy you. Oh, wait they didn't want you. Neither did Northwest or Delta or American. United had a passing facination, but decided to focus on their success instead of running an airline day-care. Yep US thinks it could have become a powerhouse on it's own. 2 consecutive BK's, but like the hopping torso of Monty Python's knight , "It's just a flesh wound!" It would be funnier as fiction.

US was unique though in figuring out how to screw up a franchise that had the potential to all but print money. They dominated the highest yielding markets in the country, yet were unable to have the foresight to keep themselves out of BK.

Twice.

Now they take a similar opportunity to regain their strength as part of a successful airline with mangement that has arguably dealt WN their biggest black eye in their history, yet the US'rs prefer to look back at what they lost or could possibly lose rather than capitalize on what they have. And they will blame management for all the pain that comes from that strategy. Same tattered US playbook.

Yeah, I agree there are two very different philosophies, and only one leads to success.

Oh yes!!!! Because America West was running the entire industry and calling all the shots on "how it's done". Wise up!! Nobody was running after that big Orange and Green piece of $#!& out in the desert!!! Funny how it took USAir something like 70 or so years to even begin to fail and it only took AWA what 6 or 7 before they were in BK and on death's door. Fast forward 9 years later to 1999 and was almost shut down again because WOW!!! They again were showing everyone in the industry "how it's done". Again so successful that for the next 6 years (until merger) they either lost money or managed to scrape in small amounts (by major standards of $3-$15m) all on the backs of their hard working employees who manage to make among the LOWEST wages in the industry and at the same time the highest turnover of any major. Simply amazing isn't it? Couldn't manage to keep 3 747's flying between Japan and the US but man you're gonna show us all how it's done!!!! We'd like to thank you America West for leading this entire industry by example, after all you are the industry leader and have been for decades.

 

[Pi brat]

I agree with most of what you said, but I disagree, and so did the arbitrator and 2 neutrals, that chp 11 vs. chp 7 is a wash. They felt there was a difference in career expectations, which is one of the tenants in ALPA merger policy. I've said all along I'm not too fond of the award because there are no fences, but I do strongly feel that a ratio/relative seniority integration (preserving seniority) is the only fair method considering all factors including the disparate age of the Company's and respective pilot workforce.

No windfalls is also a tenant. They guys slotted in my class can take a CLT capt before me even though I was a capt there for 4 years. That is a windfall. The top 517 US guys could jump right into PHX and move senior AWA guys down and deny senior F/Os their upgrades in their base. That is a windfall. I think the lack of fences for both sides was a mistake.
I figured it would be slotted, just not so much in AWAs favor towards the bottom.

 

[bootRiggle]

Oh yes!!!! Because America West was running the entire industry and calling all the shots on "how it's done". Wise up!! Nobody was running after that big Orange and Green piece of $#!& out in the desert!!! Funny how it took USAir something like 70 or so years to even begin to fail and it only took AWA what 6 or 7 before they were in BK and on death's door. Fast forward 9 years later to 1999 and was almost shut down again because WOW!!! They again were showing everyone in the industry "how it's done". Again so successful that for the next 6 years (until merger) they either lost money or managed to scrape in small amounts (by major standards of $3-$15m) all on the backs of their hard working employees who manage to make among the LOWEST wages in the industry and at the same time the highest turnover of any major. Simply amazing isn't it? Couldn't manage to keep 3 747's flying between Japan and the US but man you're gonna show us all how it's done!!!! We'd like to thank you America West for leading this entire industry by example, after all you are the industry leader and have been for decades.

AMEN TO THAT !!!!

 

[WCT]

I would much rather work with a group of employees with vast knowledge and experience anyday! This whole who was better airline is discusting and getting REAL OLD. We have some great people on the west that have kept AWA an airline for many years, never counting on mgmt to give us a pat on the back. Same goes for the East. The fact of the matter is a winning airline is only as good as the workers, forget about the money mongers we call mgmt! If we get sold, consildate again, nothing will change.
We have to much to offer as a work group that far betters our competitors, and that is Survival! Bring it on!
Lets stop whining about the past, and the debacle of who is better, and was, and saved who??! Please. I can #### on this board all day about what is bad, but I am proud of our combined work forces. Just look at how popular we are on this board!!

 

[Art at ISP]

I am sorry to say you have all proven my point. No one here even cares about finding ways to fix things, it's all about bi&$#ing and griping about who saved who and east this and west that etc... Enough already.

If the energy which went into the complaining and arguing went into fixing things or finding a solution, I think things would be better.

Realizing that this mess is 99% management's fault, I think that some of the attitudes and surliness found on this board permeate themselves into the airports and airplanes. I guess most people are content to be part of the problem rather than part of the solution.

Perhaps the right move is to sell one or more piece off separately....it doesn't look like east and west will EVER work together, so what's the point?

By the way, I actually TRIED to book a US trip today--between the web site taking 20 seconds or more to do everything and showing on time percentages for flights between 10 and 30%, I shrugged my shoulders, and decided not to go. My colleagues are coming to meet with a client in Cherry Hill, and they are flying into EWR.

Sorry folks....