Bend over PDT.
- Thread starter DASH8AV8R
- Start date
What the pilots negotiated and negotiate in terms of outsourced and express flying have HUGE impact on the frontline workers at mainline
The US Airways and America West collective bargaining agreements with ALPA will be modified to allow for a combined maximum of ninety-three (93) CRJ-900, or other aircraft within the seating and maximum take-off weight limits specified in Paragraph B above, to be operated in revenue service at any given time at Express Carriers except that for every two (2) aircraft in excess of the combined 360 aircraft (excluding EMB 190 aircraft) operated at both US Airways and America West, that are added to revenue service in the mainline fleet, the Company may allow three (3) additional CRJ-900, or other aircraft within the seating and maximum take-off weight limits specified in Paragraph B above, to be operated in revenue service at Express carriers.
----- CRJ900–Bombardier’s newest and largest version of the immensely successful CRJ family of regional jets drew its first sale in some two years in late January, when Phoenix-based Mesa Air Group agreed on a still-undefined mix of 20 CRJ700s/CRJ900s for its America West Express network. By early last month Mesa had taken 15 of the 86-seat airplanes claimed in earlier orders, but remained the only customer for a program Bombardier executives once advertised as a solid bridge between existing 70-seat RJs and the emerging class of narrowbodies poised to compete for the bottom of the mainline market. Still, nearly four years after the program’s launch at the 2000 Farnborough Air Show, the firm order tally showed just 25 airplanes, leaving many wondering whether the “sweet spot†about which they talked had turned sour before its time.Introduced on the strength of a launch order for 10 airplanes from leasing giant GECAS, the CRJ900 drew its first airline customer in March 2001, when Mesa signed a letter of intent that included a firm order for 20 of the 86-seat jets and an option for another 20. Once its own prospects for placing the airplanes disintegrated, however, GECAS canceled its order. Mesa subsequently converted firm orders for five CRJ700s to a follow-on order for five CRJ900s, bringing the program total to 25.Mesa placed the first aircraft–dressed in America West Express livery and configured in a two-class, 80-seat cabin layout– into service on a route between Los Angeles and Phoenix late last April. A year later, the Phoenix-based airline remains one of the last major carriers in the U.S. whose regional affiliates enjoy unfettered access to regional jets certified to carry more than 70 passengers. Despite widespread relaxation of limits on 50- and 70-seat jets at regional affiliates, the manufacturers’ early projections of more lenient capacity restrictions have yet to materialize, a fact that remains perhaps the CRJ900’s biggest obstacle.Such constraints again revealed their disruptive potential last July, when union pressure compelled US Airways to convert a firm order for 25 Bombardier CRJ705s to positions for 70-seat CRJ700s. Scheduled originally for first delivery to wholly owned US Airways subsidiary PSA Airlines early this year, the CRJ705–a planned 75-seat, 82,500-pound mtow version of the CRJ900–exceeds the 75,000-pound mtow, 70-seat limits imposed on US Airways regional affiliates by the mainline pilots’ union scope clause. Although it agreed to an exemption for the Embraer 170 and 175, ALPA’s US Airways division refused to grant further concessions for the Bombardier jet.More recently, Air Canada told representatives from its mainline pilot union that it might replace half a proposed order for 30 CRJ705s with 15 Embraer 170s or 175s. In December Air Canada split a commitment for 90 airplanes between the two manufacturers, but ongoing negotiations over regional-mainline flying rights led the bankrupt airline to reconsider the planned fleet mix to place the Embraer jets with the mainline. It would then convert the remaining CRJ705 positions to an order for 15 CRJ700s, all of which it would assign to wholly owned regional subsidiary Air Canada Jazz.Meanwhile, in Europe, where scope clauses present virtually none of the market constraints they do in the U.S., the CRJ900 has faced an even tougher sell, drawing just a single firm order from France’s Brit Air for four airplanes, only to see it canceled a few months later.Of course, when Bombardier introduced the CRJ900, no one could have predicted the economic upheaval 9/11 would eventually produce, and the severe interruption in the flow of financing for new airplanes in virtually every seat class. Although its commonality attributes appeal most to regional airlines already flying CRJs, the 86-seat jet might have also filled a role at the lowest end of the single-aisle mainline range, surmised Bombardier. It has failed to deliver on that promise, however, as rival Embraer prepares to fill its first order from the emerging low-fare niche with the larger, 98-seat Embraer 190.The CRJ900 reached the market some two years before the scheduled first delivery of the 78- to 86-seat Embraer 175, its closest competitor in terms of seating capacity and weight. Embraer promotes the 175’s more spacious cabin and baggage capacity as vital attributes for the longer routes it believes airplanes in that seat class will serve. Nevertheless, a tentative launch order from India’s Jet Airways fizzled last year, leaving Embraer with only a tentative commitment from US Airways to convert some positions for 70-seat 170s to 175s.In reaction to “competitive pressures,†Bombardier last year assigned more range to the CRJ900 with a so-called paperwork mod that increased its maximum reach to 1,914 nm. Dubbed the CRJ900LR, the variant promises a maximum takeoff weight of 84,500 pounds–4,000 more than the standard CRJ900 and 2,000 pounds higher than the mid-range CRJ900ER. Bombardier v-p Barry McKinnon explained that the company arrived at the extra range by apportioning the higher takeoff weights, thus expanding the airplane’s payload-range envelope without modifying the airframe.
The US Airways and America West collective bargaining agreements with ALPA will be modified to allow for a combined maximum of ninety-three (93) CRJ-900, or other aircraft within the seating and maximum take-off weight limits specified in Paragraph B above, to be operated in revenue service at any given time at Express Carriers except that for every two (2) aircraft in excess of the combined 360 aircraft (excluding EMB 190 aircraft) operated at both US Airways and America West, that are added to revenue service in the mainline fleet, the Company may allow three (3) additional CRJ-900, or other aircraft within the seating and maximum take-off weight limits specified in Paragraph B above, to be operated in revenue service at Express carriers.
----- CRJ900–Bombardier’s newest and largest version of the immensely successful CRJ family of regional jets drew its first sale in some two years in late January, when Phoenix-based Mesa Air Group agreed on a still-undefined mix of 20 CRJ700s/CRJ900s for its America West Express network. By early last month Mesa had taken 15 of the 86-seat airplanes claimed in earlier orders, but remained the only customer for a program Bombardier executives once advertised as a solid bridge between existing 70-seat RJs and the emerging class of narrowbodies poised to compete for the bottom of the mainline market. Still, nearly four years after the program’s launch at the 2000 Farnborough Air Show, the firm order tally showed just 25 airplanes, leaving many wondering whether the “sweet spot†about which they talked had turned sour before its time.Introduced on the strength of a launch order for 10 airplanes from leasing giant GECAS, the CRJ900 drew its first airline customer in March 2001, when Mesa signed a letter of intent that included a firm order for 20 of the 86-seat jets and an option for another 20. Once its own prospects for placing the airplanes disintegrated, however, GECAS canceled its order. Mesa subsequently converted firm orders for five CRJ700s to a follow-on order for five CRJ900s, bringing the program total to 25.Mesa placed the first aircraft–dressed in America West Express livery and configured in a two-class, 80-seat cabin layout– into service on a route between Los Angeles and Phoenix late last April. A year later, the Phoenix-based airline remains one of the last major carriers in the U.S. whose regional affiliates enjoy unfettered access to regional jets certified to carry more than 70 passengers. Despite widespread relaxation of limits on 50- and 70-seat jets at regional affiliates, the manufacturers’ early projections of more lenient capacity restrictions have yet to materialize, a fact that remains perhaps the CRJ900’s biggest obstacle.Such constraints again revealed their disruptive potential last July, when union pressure compelled US Airways to convert a firm order for 25 Bombardier CRJ705s to positions for 70-seat CRJ700s. Scheduled originally for first delivery to wholly owned US Airways subsidiary PSA Airlines early this year, the CRJ705–a planned 75-seat, 82,500-pound mtow version of the CRJ900–exceeds the 75,000-pound mtow, 70-seat limits imposed on US Airways regional affiliates by the mainline pilots’ union scope clause. Although it agreed to an exemption for the Embraer 170 and 175, ALPA’s US Airways division refused to grant further concessions for the Bombardier jet.More recently, Air Canada told representatives from its mainline pilot union that it might replace half a proposed order for 30 CRJ705s with 15 Embraer 170s or 175s. In December Air Canada split a commitment for 90 airplanes between the two manufacturers, but ongoing negotiations over regional-mainline flying rights led the bankrupt airline to reconsider the planned fleet mix to place the Embraer jets with the mainline. It would then convert the remaining CRJ705 positions to an order for 15 CRJ700s, all of which it would assign to wholly owned regional subsidiary Air Canada Jazz.Meanwhile, in Europe, where scope clauses present virtually none of the market constraints they do in the U.S., the CRJ900 has faced an even tougher sell, drawing just a single firm order from France’s Brit Air for four airplanes, only to see it canceled a few months later.Of course, when Bombardier introduced the CRJ900, no one could have predicted the economic upheaval 9/11 would eventually produce, and the severe interruption in the flow of financing for new airplanes in virtually every seat class. Although its commonality attributes appeal most to regional airlines already flying CRJs, the 86-seat jet might have also filled a role at the lowest end of the single-aisle mainline range, surmised Bombardier. It has failed to deliver on that promise, however, as rival Embraer prepares to fill its first order from the emerging low-fare niche with the larger, 98-seat Embraer 190.The CRJ900 reached the market some two years before the scheduled first delivery of the 78- to 86-seat Embraer 175, its closest competitor in terms of seating capacity and weight. Embraer promotes the 175’s more spacious cabin and baggage capacity as vital attributes for the longer routes it believes airplanes in that seat class will serve. Nevertheless, a tentative launch order from India’s Jet Airways fizzled last year, leaving Embraer with only a tentative commitment from US Airways to convert some positions for 70-seat 170s to 175s.In reaction to “competitive pressures,†Bombardier last year assigned more range to the CRJ900 with a so-called paperwork mod that increased its maximum reach to 1,914 nm. Dubbed the CRJ900LR, the variant promises a maximum takeoff weight of 84,500 pounds–4,000 more than the standard CRJ900 and 2,000 pounds higher than the mid-range CRJ900ER. Bombardier v-p Barry McKinnon explained that the company arrived at the extra range by apportioning the higher takeoff weights, thus expanding the airplane’s payload-range envelope without modifying the airframe.
BoeingBoy
Veteran
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2003
- Messages
- 16,512
- Reaction score
- 5,865
Some numbers....
At the end of 1999, two years after the 1998 contract I mentioned earlier had gone into effect, mainline operated 64 aircraft seating ~100. The Express carriers operated 130 turboprops, none seating over 37. No rj's were being operated by Express. The limits of the then current scope language hadn't been reached.
A year later, at the end of 2000, mainline was still operating 63 airplanes seating ~100. Express had it's first two Dash 8-300's plus 129 smaller turboprops. The 1998 scope limits still hadn't been reached.
At the end of 2001, after the exchange of letters that john john brought up, mainline was still operating 22 airplanes seating ~100 while Express was operating 132 turboprops - 8 of which were the Dash 8-300. The company was castigating the pilots union for not negotiating "small jet" relief, but still hadn't reached the limits of the 1998 scope language - notice none of the 25 rj's allowed under scope were being operated.
At the end of 2002, mainline operated no aircraft seating less than 120. Scope relief had been negotiated as part of the BK1 concessions, which allowed the company to operate up to 465 rj's seating up to 72 - any rj over 50 seats had to be operated by MDA. 70 rj's were being operated - a mixture of CRJ200's and Erj-145's - all at the contract Express carriers. The number of turboprops wasn't given in the 2002 annual report, filed during BK1, but the number of turboprops wasn't limited by scope. The transfer of flying from mainline/wholly-owned had begun.
At the end of 2003, mainline had shrunk from ~400 aircraft to ~280 airplanes and ~11,000 employees were gone. Contract Express carriers operated 113 rj's, still a mixture of CRJ-200's and ERJ-145's. Another 53 CRJ200's, 25 CRJ700's and 85 Emb170's were on order. The Express turboprop operating fleet wasn't detailed, but 16 Dash 8-200's were parked. The transfer of mainline and wholly-owned flying to contract Express carriers was in full swing.
Jim
At the end of 1999, two years after the 1998 contract I mentioned earlier had gone into effect, mainline operated 64 aircraft seating ~100. The Express carriers operated 130 turboprops, none seating over 37. No rj's were being operated by Express. The limits of the then current scope language hadn't been reached.
A year later, at the end of 2000, mainline was still operating 63 airplanes seating ~100. Express had it's first two Dash 8-300's plus 129 smaller turboprops. The 1998 scope limits still hadn't been reached.
At the end of 2001, after the exchange of letters that john john brought up, mainline was still operating 22 airplanes seating ~100 while Express was operating 132 turboprops - 8 of which were the Dash 8-300. The company was castigating the pilots union for not negotiating "small jet" relief, but still hadn't reached the limits of the 1998 scope language - notice none of the 25 rj's allowed under scope were being operated.
At the end of 2002, mainline operated no aircraft seating less than 120. Scope relief had been negotiated as part of the BK1 concessions, which allowed the company to operate up to 465 rj's seating up to 72 - any rj over 50 seats had to be operated by MDA. 70 rj's were being operated - a mixture of CRJ200's and Erj-145's - all at the contract Express carriers. The number of turboprops wasn't given in the 2002 annual report, filed during BK1, but the number of turboprops wasn't limited by scope. The transfer of flying from mainline/wholly-owned had begun.
At the end of 2003, mainline had shrunk from ~400 aircraft to ~280 airplanes and ~11,000 employees were gone. Contract Express carriers operated 113 rj's, still a mixture of CRJ-200's and ERJ-145's. Another 53 CRJ200's, 25 CRJ700's and 85 Emb170's were on order. The Express turboprop operating fleet wasn't detailed, but 16 Dash 8-200's were parked. The transfer of mainline and wholly-owned flying to contract Express carriers was in full swing.
Jim
FutureUScapt
Veteran
- Joined
- Dec 1, 2005
- Messages
- 600
- Reaction score
- 13
I might be misunderstanding what you wrote, but are you talking about CRJs being operated by wholly-owned subsidiaries or just in general?
IIRC, Mesa began operating a few CRJs for Express in 1999, certainly by 2001. By 2001, Chautauqua and Trans States were also operating a few ERJs for Express as well.
Don't forget the ATR-72-500. Not as many passengers as the Dash-8-400, a little slower, a llot less expensive. I remember an ATR-72-500 making a visit to Piedmont in Salisbury about a year ago. 68/69 paxs and 31" pitch and your below scope. Apparently, the ATR-600 has better performance than the ATR-72-500.
http://www.atraircraft.com/public/atr/html...6&pid=30462
http://www.atraircraft.com/public/atr/html...6&pid=30462
BoeingBoy
Veteran
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2003
- Messages
- 16,512
- Reaction score
- 5,865
FutureUScapt,
Thanks for catching that - I didn't notice that the Express aircraft table I was looking at was for the wholly-owned only.
According to the narrative in the 2001 annual report, Express affiliates operated an average of 56 aircraft that year and an average of 26 the previous year (2000). It doesn't give the breakdown by type aircraft or the number at year end.
The 1998 contract I have is the printed one, so includes no LOA's after that contract was ratified. I may be omitting a scope change that occurred between 1998 and the BK1 concessions in 2002, but I don't remember one.
Jim
Thanks for catching that - I didn't notice that the Express aircraft table I was looking at was for the wholly-owned only.
According to the narrative in the 2001 annual report, Express affiliates operated an average of 56 aircraft that year and an average of 26 the previous year (2000). It doesn't give the breakdown by type aircraft or the number at year end.
The 1998 contract I have is the printed one, so includes no LOA's after that contract was ratified. I may be omitting a scope change that occurred between 1998 and the BK1 concessions in 2002, but I don't remember one.
Jim
FutureUScapt
Veteran
- Joined
- Dec 1, 2005
- Messages
- 600
- Reaction score
- 13
Jim,
Thanks for the clarification.
IIRC, ALPA did agree on a scope relaxation prior to BK1. The initial agreement allowed for only 35 small jets, but it was later upped to 70 small jets, sometime in the 2000/2001 time frame (I think).
Thanks for the clarification.
IIRC, ALPA did agree on a scope relaxation prior to BK1. The initial agreement allowed for only 35 small jets, but it was later upped to 70 small jets, sometime in the 2000/2001 time frame (I think).
lostplanetairman
Advanced
- Joined
- Jan 12, 2005
- Messages
- 165
- Reaction score
- 4
PSA has pilots on furlough. How are they taking applications?
HRDiva
HRDiva
Your're right. It is pure politics, and PIEDMONT should be flying the DASH-8Q400 if not regional jets. There is so much experience at Piedmont it's not funny. And I would bet any pilot out there that the flying PDT or any other turboprop operation does is more difficult than flying a jet. Weather, icing, multiple legs, no autopilots..etc.
As an ex Piedmont guy and Original Cactus pilot (OC) pilot I can assure you it is not our West ALPA contract that is holding Piedmont back. It is not ALPA national. It is the EAST contract. They are the one's holding the chip on the Q400. If you talk to any West pilot you will find a very accommodating attitude about Q400 flying, and wholly owns getting the most coveted flying and a real flow through agreement. Why? Because most of us come from the regionals and haven't forgotten where we come from. We have lived with Mesa a long time and know all about Ornstein's crappy ways of treating people and how not to build a quality airline. It makes total sense to keep control of quality in house. But whipsawing is whipsawing and we too at the West are going through the same BS.
By the way it was the America West pilots that opened the door on the CRJ900 (contract 2004-prior to the US/HP merger). Our contract stipulated that for every so many aircraft added to the mainline fleet the company could get so many regional jets. We also have some wacked out flow down language that if we were to hit the streets we would get preferential interviews with Mesa....hhmmm. IN and OUT Burger sounds like a better deal!
Most of those -200's went to Mesa in PHX. They still hold the NxxxHA registrations to this day. I remember the first time I noticed seeing tail numbers that I had flown at my previous employer. That was truly a sad day for me, knowing all well what was going on at PDT.
Freighterguynow
Veteran
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2004
- Messages
- 1,276
- Reaction score
- 1,207
:down:
Piedmont is or was accepting resumes also. Go figure.
I agree, this was a bad bad move on the HP pilot group, because YV wasn't a wholly owned of the then HP. Giving that kind of flying to a contract company is crazy. That is the problem with 50% plus 1 on union votes. Depending on the makeup of your airline it isn't hard for management to tweak TA's to get the 1 extra person.
The only way scope works is with flow up / flow down provisions. It emboldens the pilot group as a larger force for management to contend with, provides better job protection for existing pilots of both entities, and the mainline would see a lot less attrition if new hire pilots were getting mainline seniority numbers.
Unfortunately the US Air pilots during the Wolf years didn't want to extend this idea to Wolf and keep the SJ, "small jets" in house. Instead Mesa turned out to to be the initial winner of the first few rounds of RJ's, leaving PDT/ALG with DHC-8's and PSA with DO328's.
Typical wholly own curse.
