Blame the Unions!

Andy S.

Member
Dec 21, 2002
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I guess that the $2.5 Billion MANAGEMENT spent on MIA and JFK terminal expansion, the $3.1 Billion MANAGEMENT committed to aircraft we don't need, and the $2.9 Billion in cash paid and debt assumed by MANAGEMENT for TWA have absolutely nothing to do with our current predicament.

Andy S.

p.s. Don't worry. Stay calm. Don has a plan....
 

TWAFA007

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Sep 2, 2002
133
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Aloha,
Its ironic that the AA Unions wanted to see the books to see IF they would accept a wage freeze. As if AMR isnt really in trouble. Its also interesting that everyone wants to blame management for current state of affairs of the airlines. Actually the root of all that is wrong, in todays airline industry, is the Unions and their extortion tactics that forced the airlines to sign contracts that they could not afford. None of the contracts in place were ever based on realistic projections of airlines ability to pay for them. Ever.
What was THE #1 force that drove all contracts in the last 20 years? It wasnt based on economic facts but driven by just one drive. Every Airline Union wanted the same goal. The only goal was one of upmanship. Every Union contract was not based on what the actual airline they were working for was doing. No that did not matter. The only thing that matter was that their contract was better then any other airline out there. Even if their airline was losing money. How many times have we heard how great our Union was in getting industry leading pay or work rules. I remembered how proud that the APFA had the best paid F/As in the business. Is AMR in a position to pay that? No! Now there are thousands of AA F/As unemployed not making any money. Some contract.
UAL F/As signed a 10 year deal. Their contract guaranteed that they would be the best paid over that 10 years regardless to UAL finacial health. If their contract pay fell behind other contracts pay theirs would have to be raised too. Just last year, even after losing hundreds of millions, UAL had to give another raise to the F/As they could not afford.
If the airlines would not meet the demands of the Unions they would cause the Airline to lose Millions of dollars in job actions until the airlines would submit. All airline contracts are bloated beyond reason with high pay and work rules that prevent the airlines from making money to pay for them.
The Unions had their laugh. If you dont give us everything we want we will strike. Well what comes around goes around. Now its the Management''s turn. If you dont give the concessions we want we will go bankrupt and void your contracts and do with you what we may. Just ask the UAL mechanics how they voted for their last pay cut. Oh ya there wasnt a vote. UAL just ask the Judge to force them to take it.
The unrealistic contracts have cost over 100,000 jobs with more being lost every day. They say that a Union job is to protect a members job. How good of
job are they doing today? The greed of my contract is better then yours has failed. The Unions have failed to do there basic job. That is to save jobs.
The AMR Pilots Union does not aloud AMR to be competitive with regional jets. In their vain attempt to save a few jobs they will lose all the jobs if, thru their contracts restrictions, AA goes belly up. How short sighted is that. Ask any airline analyst what is the fasted growing and most profitable segment in the airline industry. Regional jets. RJs'' are the future for many markets. Because of the APA AMR is prevented from having a future and being competitive. If AMR cant be competitive they cant make money. If they cant make money they cant pay their employees. How many more jobs will be lost?
If history is the key for the future talks between AMR and their Unions on future concessions, it doesnt look good. The Unions have put AA in a situation that they have to ask for more then the Unions will be willing to give. Just look at the APFA refusal to give up just a little %3 raise. Just wait and see the cuts the bankruptcy judge will impose. I dont see the Unions working with AA. They never have and never will. Look what good the EAL Unions did for their members. Look at U & UAL. Now take a good look at AA. Will the AA Unions force AA into bankrupcy? Its up to the Unions now. Lets see how well they have learned from history, or havent.
ALOHA, 007
 

The Dissident

Senior
Contributor
Dec 21, 2002
321
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So TWAFA007 how much are you going to give back to AA we all know that you are just soooo overpaid for that waitress job you do. As a mechanic I will not give up any money while other less skilled professions continue to make more than I.
 

RV4

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
1,885
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www.usaviation.com
I suspect that the predicatable response to AA's request for concessions is actually key to AA's current strategy.[BR][BR]A predicatable foe is easy to defeat.
 

AirwAr

Senior
Aug 21, 2002
435
131
www.usaviation.com
[blockquote]
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On 1/27/2003 8:41:00 PM Andy S. wrote:

I guess that the $2.5 Billion MANAGEMENT spent on MIA and JFK terminal expansion, the $3.1 Billion MANAGEMENT committed to aircraft we don't need, and the $2.9 Billion in cash paid and debt assumed by MANAGEMENT for TWA have absolutely nothing to do with our current predicament.

Andy S.

p.s. Don't worry. Stay calm. Don has a plan....
----------------
[/blockquote]

What a load of crap. No one can see the future. Or did the unions and their memebers see it and decide to keep it secret. If you knew that we would be in the worst economic situation ever, why didn't you tell someone? Why did unions push for industry leading contracts?

I wonder how many people bought new houses, new cars, or made home improvements in the last couple of years that wish they had the money now instead. No one can see the future and you do the best planning you can with the information at hand.

If, however, you are an accurate fortuneteller, please give Don a call and let him know what to do from here on out. However, don't waste your time calling the union leaders because no matter what proof you show them, they’ll just bury their head in the sand and forget about the world around them.
 

FA Mikey

Veteran
Aug 19, 2002
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Predictable, Started by a strike buster, fueled by blow hards and fools.

I don't remember Don Carty Jane Allen or any other manager cowering in fear as one of the great unions called to tell them to open the AA vaults, for us all to loot.
 

AirwAr

Senior
Aug 21, 2002
435
131
www.usaviation.com
[blockquote]
----------------
On 1/27/2003 9:33:32 PM FA Mikey wrote:

Predictable, Started by a strike buster, fueled by blow hards and fools.

I don't remember Don Carty Jane Allen or any other manager cowering in fear as one of the great unions called to tell them to open the AA vaults, for us all to loot.
----------------
[/blockquote]

May I ask what are the things you feel are foolish? The fact that sometimes a Union's contract makes it difficult to compete or the part about not being able to tell the
future?

Why is it that if other employees post something contrary to your view, you feel they are blow hards? Is it because you don't have any type of quality argument but you feel you must lash out anyway?

The fact is if something doesn't change, we will be in bankruptcy. That's not a prediction, that's not a guess, that's a fact. We can't change the economy. We have no control over oil prices. We can't force UA to chapter 7. And we don't have a fortuneteller. So, what do we have control over? The only thing we can control is our wages & benefits. The way I see it, it's a choice of the lesser of 2 evils.

Now, of course, entering bankruptcy does not necessarily mean mass job losses, but again, it comes down to what you believe will be better for you. Do you feel that the unions will end up with a better situation in bankruptcy? Can you provide any facts of how your situation will be improved if this company goes Chapter 11 and somehow avoids Chapter 7?

Sorry for the length of my posts. I guess this is one of the reasones you called me a blow hard.
 

AirwAr

Senior
Aug 21, 2002
435
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Union members complain that during the good times they get screwed because they signed a concessionary contract during the down times. Why not stipulate in your contract, when management gets a raise, we get a raise? When management has a wage freeze, we have a wage freeze. Or how about modeling your contracts after Southwest’s’? They build items into their contract that provide automatic gains during the good times and automatically share in the pain in the bad times.

I read a lot postings on this website that state that Southwest’s employees aren’t low cost employees. As a matter of fact, they are well paid. So how about we try this. Let’s adopt Southwest’s pay scales from Carty on down. Their employees seem to relatively happy with their pay. So let’s try it. What do we have to lose?
 

FA Mikey

Veteran
Aug 19, 2002
4,421
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miami
goldwatermiller08.com
Yes, Blame the Unions. Then ask, who the no shows were at the company union meeting, that AA wanted to have?

Instead of everyone driving out to centreport and finding themselves all alone, The unions could get together at APFA, or APA headquarters, or even the TWU local office. Since we will only be talking amongst ourselves
 

TWAFA007

Advanced
Sep 2, 2002
133
0
[blockquote]
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On 1/27/2003 9:33:32 PM FA Mikey wrote:

I don't remember Don Carty Jane Allen or any other manager cowering in fear as one of the great unions called to tell them to open the AA vaults, for us all to loot.
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[/blockquote]
Aloha Mike,

You dont? What did they do when the APFA struck?

Isnt interesting that the Airline that pays its F/As the most is the Airline losing the most? How much are you going to give up now that the Company needs your help? Or are you going to let a Judge decided for you? Now that APFA has had time to look at the books do they think that AMR can pay the F/As even more? What has APFA done to try to get furloughed F/As back to work? Nothing. Actually, the fact that they took a raise when AA is going bankrupt shows that they are willing to sacrfice even more members as they force AA to take even further cuts. The more money you make the more they save by letting you go. How many more Union jobs will be lost to Union arrogance. I remember you bragging how APFA got you the best pay in the industry. What good does that do to the thousands of F/As out of work? What is the APFA doing to insure the future of AA now? Anything? Nothing? How many more F/As jobs are they willing to sacrifice to keep the pay raises? All of them?

ALOHA, 007
 

FA Mikey

Veteran
Aug 19, 2002
4,421
301
miami
goldwatermiller08.com
Will the 3% cut in pay I take make AA profitable? NO, so why the rush to cut employee pay? Why the rush to blame unions for all the ills the airline fases?

Next month AA will pay over 107,000 dollars in the Miami domestic operation in free pay and credit. By building lines and schedules that are ridiculous. Example day one fly MIA-EWR, layover 30 hours fly the same home. works about 6 hours pays 14. Is that effective utilization? That line of 7 people get almost 40 hours of free time. Is this a company serious about cutting waste and costs? I don't think so. Not yet they are not.
 

FA Mikey

Veteran
Aug 19, 2002
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goldwatermiller08.com
[blockquote]


May I ask what are the things you feel are foolish? The fact that sometimes a Union's contract makes it difficult to compete or the part about not being able to tell the
future?

[/blockquote]

Here is a Quote from Don Carty back in August of 2002. "The greatest sin of airline management of the last 22 years is to say its all labors fault."

What in the AA/APFA makes it difficult for AA to compete. IS it the limit on my duty day 16 hours? Is it the fact I get 10 hours off between flights, block in block out? What is killing AA in my contract?
 

TWAFA007

Advanced
Sep 2, 2002
133
0
[blockquote]
----------------
On 1/27/2003 10:24:37 PM FA Mikey wrote:

Will the 3% cut in pay I take make AA profitable? NO, so why the rush to cut employee pay? Why the rush to blame unions for all the ills the airline fases?

Next month AA will pay over 107,000 dollars in the Miami domestic operation in free pay and credit. By building lines and schedules that are ridiculous. Example day one fly MIA-EWR, layover 30 hours fly the same home. works about 6 hours pays 14. Is that effective utilization? That line of 7 people get almost 40 hours of free time. Is this a company serious about cutting waste and costs? I don't think so. Not yet they are not.
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[/blockquote]
ALOHA,

Why the rush to cut employee pay? Well employee pay accounts for %50 of operating costs. Next is fuel and we all know that is going to go way up. You are right %3 wont do it, but %20 across the board would. With a pay cut like that AA could afford to recall and expand. Since %90 of furloughed F/As are from TWA who cares about recall, right. As long as you have a job and are making the big bucks. Easy for you to brag about your %3 raise.

As far as scheduling of flights. What restrictions does the F/A contract have that hurts the efficiency of flights? What will you give up? Anything?

ALOHA, 007
 

AirwAr

Senior
Aug 21, 2002
435
131
www.usaviation.com
[blockquote]
----------------
On 1/27/2003 10:24:37 PM FA Mikey wrote:

Will the 3% cut in pay I take make AA profitable? NO, so why the rush to cut employee pay? Why the rush to blame unions for all the ills the airline fases?

Next month AA will pay over 107,000 dollars in the Miami domestic operation in free pay and credit. By building lines and schedules that are ridiculous. Example day one fly MIA-EWR, layover 30 hours fly the same home. works about 6 hours pays 14. Is that effective utilization? That line of 7 people get almost 40 hours of free time. Is this a company serious about cutting waste and costs? I don't think so. Not yet they are not.
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[/blockquote]

Is there a way to resolve this waste? Is there a reason why the schedule is set this way? Have you submitted a suggestion to Carty's email on how to correct this situation? If so, what was the response?

Carty even admitted during his road shows that there were more items that can be done to reduce costs. Maybe this is one of them, I don't know. But he did say that they are not able to identify them and move fast enough to save this company. So now what?

Do you believe that forcing this company into bankruptcy will correct this inefficient scheduling? Unless the inefficacies are tied to the F/A contract, I'll bet it won't be corrected.

IMHO, giving concessions now is better than giving them in chapter 11. Even if we only gave half of the $2 billion the company is asking for, it might be just enough to bridge us to a better economy and/or UA going chapter 7. Or how about giving $500 million now, wait a few months, if nothing changes, we come up with another $500 million. Who knows, maybe we can weather the storm.