Bottom Line

[The Goose]

I certainly would never leave Tulsa, not because of family but because I was born here and like it here, I would leave AA long before
I would leave Tulsa.

Having been in the military, I've lived many places in the USA.

While I'll grant you a military town/city is not somewhere any sane person wants to live, neither is the Tulsa area. There's nothing here of interest for anyone unless that someone is rather simple of mind.

There are few employers in the area that could be called great in terms of wages and benefits, most being geared to a lower educational level. Oklahoma hasn't the school system to crank out what companies want for employees. That idiot governor we had (Keating) pushed 'right to work' as a substitute for raising education standards. That would have cost the state government money they would rather divide amongst themselves.

We're now on par with Arkansas.

 

[FWAAA]

<_< ------- FWAA! You arn't trying to put a wedge between line stations and overhaul now are you?------ NO! NOT YOU!!!! :down:

No, that's not my intention, but it's obvious (to me, at least) that AA probably won't increase the pay of all mechanics, since the current wage at Tulsa, Kansas City and Fort Worth still permits the overhaul mechanics to live fairly high on the hog yet is poverty-level in high cost cities. The overhaul mechanics keep coming to work for today's wage and I suspect they'd even keep coming to work every day for even less than the current wages.

Of course not everyone is trying to buy a home at today's sky-high prices. But there's always been a huge price difference between the high cost cities I listed and the overhaul cities. We could go back in the archives and try to figure out the price of homes in 1982 or 1985 or whenever; point is, the big city line stations (primarily on the coasts) were much more expensive back then as well. So Bob Owens and Ken MacTiernan and the others bought their first homes for $150k or $200k when a comparable home in the overhaul cities could be had for $75k or $100k. Still a huge difference.

And as Bob Owens pointed out, the prices I posted for LA are for starter homes, not trade-up mansions. Most of my neighbors have traded up over the years and plenty of the surrounding houses are worth double or triple the starter home figures (based on sales of houses on the same streets in recent years). Comparable homes could be purchased in the overhaul cities for a small fraction of those prices. Realtor.com provides a real eye opening experience in the disparity in housing prices. For those who don't own, rents have always shown comparable differences also.

Another potential problem is that AA is gonna have a hard time hiring any new young mechanics in those high cost cities in future years unless the pay in those cities reflects economic reality. Won't happen tomorrow, but eventually, Bob Owens and Ken MacTiernan and their colleagues will retire (or otherwise separate from AA). Unless there's a significant COLA for those stations, it will be tough to attract anyone new who doesn't yet have a house yet will want to buy one. AA can't attract anyone young - the alternative is to outsource line maintenance to someone else.

Sure, AA could simply give everyone a huge raise - that would solve the problem. But I really doubt that AA is gonna overpay thousands of overhaul mechanics just so it can pay a fair wage to the fewer line mechanics in the high cost cities. I've been wrong before, however, and might be this time.

Good luck in the coming year.

 

[AMFAMAN]

While I'll grant you a military town/city is not somewhere any sane person wants to live, neither is the Tulsa area. There's nothing here of interest for anyone unless that someone is rather simple of mind.

There are few employers in the area that could be called great in terms of wages and benefits, most being geared to a lower educational level. Oklahoma hasn't the school system to crank out what companies want for employees. That idiot governor we had (Keating) pushed 'right to work' as a substitute for raising education standards. That would have cost the state government money they would rather divide amongst themselves.

We're now on par with Arkansas.

Goose you forgot one--3.2 beer. <_<

 

[The Goose]

Goose you forgot one--3.2 beer. <_<

Damn - sorry 'bout that!

 

[The Goose]

(snip) ...
Sure, AA could simply give everyone a huge raise - that would solve the problem. But I really doubt that AA is gonna overpay thousands of overhaul mechanics just so it can pay a fair wage to the fewer line mechanics in the high cost cities. I've been wrong before, however, and might be this time.

Good luck in the coming year.

If Arpey has any expectation of continuing his "Work Together" farce, a goodly raise is important. He probably could have gotten by with less, but he and his frat boys have proven they are liars. They had no intent of keeping thier promises from the outset. The twu bought into it, but for reasons other than the workers - they wanted the flow of dues money to continue.

Arpey is a numbers-type fool. No idea whatsoever as to the value of trust; just the numbers. Now, he's got three unions nipping at his butt and hasn't the intelligence to stop it.

I wonder what his "market rate" will be after presiding over a total failure? How about that of the board of directors?

600k and all you can steal from the shareholders ain't bad, though.

 

[Raptor]

Having been in the military, I've lived many places in the USA.

While I'll grant you a military town/city is not somewhere any sane person wants to live, neither is the Tulsa area. There's nothing here of interest for anyone unless that someone is rather simple of mind.

There are few employers in the area that could be called great in terms of wages and benefits, most being geared to a lower educational level. Oklahoma hasn't the school system to crank out what companies want for employees. That idiot governor we had (Keating) pushed 'right to work' as a substitute for raising education standards. That would have cost the state government money they would rather divide amongst themselves.

We're now on par with Arkansas.

I have done some Military time myself (Army helicopter Mechanic) and I think Tulsa is great, what could we possibly need
here to raise a family that we don't have.
We have restraunts, clubs, lakes, Rivers, Waterfalls, zoo's, hunting, fishing, Livestock, horses, cows, chickens. Union's :angry:
I mean really what else could we possibly need that we don't have here in TULSA. I love this place.
I forgot lots of land and wide open spaces and of course Guns, in fact we have the largest gun show in the world right here.

I mean really Tulsa is perfect, how can you not love this place.

 

[TWU-GOTTA-GO]

I have done some Military time myself (Army helicopter Mechanic) and I think Tulsa is great, what could we possibly need
here to raise a family that we don't have.
We have restraunts, clubs, lakes, Rivers, Waterfalls, zoo's, hunting, fishing, Livestock, horses, cows, chickens. Union's :angry:
I mean really what else could we possibly need that we don't have here in TULSA. I love this place.
I forgot lots of land and wide open spaces and of course Guns, in fact we have the largest gun show in the world right here.

I mean really Tulsa is perfect, how can you not love this place.

You need to take advantage of your travel benefits more. I'd take street before I would bump to Tulsa in a layoff.

 

[iluvaa]

I seriously doubt that any Tulsa AA overhaul employee lives in a house that small or that old. No doubt some live high on the hog in $250k mini-mansions (which would cost Ken MacTiernan in SAN or Bob Owens in NYC easily $1.0 million or $1.5 million or more).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What, I cant help it if I bought a brand new 3000sq ft house last year for $208,000 with 2200 a year taxes in owasso ok. but I really feel your pain I think you lines guys should make alot more I dont care if I get a raise this time I just want my vacation and holidays back

 

[Raptor]

You need to take advantage of your travel benefits more. I'd take street before I would bump to Tulsa in a layoff.

ARE YOU NUTS :unsure:

My god man do you realize what you are saying.

Ok I will admit that Hawaii is better than Tulsa and I would take it over Tulsa if I could afford to live there,
I did live there for 3 years when I was in the Military and it was pretty great.
and I will also admit that Arkansas is possibly better than Tulsa because of the dense vegetation and great
hunting, but that is pretty much it brother every place else is definetly beneath Tulsa.

Once again I have been to many places in the Military and non revving, Tulsa is just Damn hard to beat.

To iluvaa you go guy congradulations on your 3000 sq. ft. house in owasso, now that is country living at its best.
I know it is technically not Tulsa but really what I meant is pretty much anywhere in Oklahoma is awsome.

You know TWU we don't allow just anyone to live here, you have to pass the test first.

 

[TWU-GOTTA-GO]

ARE YOU NUTS :unsure:

My god man do you realize what you are saying.

Yes I do know what I'm saying and having spent plenty of time in Tulsa, I repeat: I'd take the street before I ever moved there. BTW...no test is needed, already qualified.

 

[Raptor]

Yes I do know what I'm saying and having spent plenty of time in Tulsa, I repeat: I'd take the street before I ever moved there. BTW...no test is needed, already qualified.

Just curious is it the people in Overhaul that you don't like or is it the actual state itself.
I can understand you not liking the local or the people at the overhaul station, ....but the state itself :unsure:

If it is the state what is it that you dislike so much about Oklahoma, that you could not live here ?
It really is very rare that I run into someone that dislikes oklahoma.

There is not as much action here as in a big city but it is nice and quiete which is good for raising kids, and
if you are into the God thing there is pretty much a church on every corner, plus now we even have a vegas style
casino, although the police department will tell you the casino brought crime with it, many people steal so they can gamble
it all away there.

What state are you in now and why do you like it there ?

 

[Hopeful]

The bottom line is that for the most part, where we live is home, plain and simple. I myself would never relocate just because the cost of living is cheaper somewhere else. We have familes and lives and moving is easier said than done. The cost of living in NY is out fo control with respect to home prices and property taxes.
I would just like a wage that factors in costs of living in addition to our responsibilities as aircraft mechanics. I don't belittle anyone who chooses to live in a lower cost state. I also don't subscribe to the view that those of us who work at the line stations in high cost area should simply "MOVE TO TULSA OR TEXAS WHERE IT COSTS LESS TO LIVE!" It is just not an option for many of us with ties where we now reside.
A decent wage is all I ask.

 

[FWAAA]

What, I cant help it if I bought a brand new 3000sq ft house last year for $208,000 with 2200 a year taxes in owasso ok. but I really feel your pain I think you lines guys should make alot more I dont care if I get a raise this time I just want my vacation and holidays back

I'm happy for you. You're living the American dream exactly the way we evil Republicans (I'm Exhibit A in that category) keep saying everybody can. Good for you!

 

[The Goose]

The bottom line is that for the most part, where we live is home, plain and simple. I myself would never relocate just because the cost of living is cheaper somewhere else. We have familes and lives and moving is easier said than done. The cost of living in NY is out fo control with respect to home prices and property taxes.
I would just like a wage that factors in costs of living in addition to our responsibilities as aircraft mechanics. I don't belittle anyone who chooses to live in a lower cost state. I also don't subscribe to the view that those of us who work at the line stations in high cost area should simply "MOVE TO TULSA OR TEXAS WHERE IT COSTS LESS TO LIVE!" It is just not an option for many of us with ties where we now reside.
A decent wage is all I ask.

As I said in an earlier post -

You'll hear much in the months ahead about 'market rates', as the rates relate to wages. Just as AMR hired an executive-friendly firm to do their 'research' re: executive compensation, they'll use the same firm to say we're overpaid.

For workers, the market is established when one takes a position at a given rate of pay. If there are no takers, pay will rise until there are takers, or qualifications will be lowered; some combination of this will get someone willing to take the job for the listed compensation.

Executive compensation is a different story, however. This is a matter of 'how much can I get away with taking what I want and not anger the shareholders too much?'

I can't think of an instance where an airline exec went to another industry and did well. Mismanagement isn't tolerated in the real world to the extent it is at the airlines; rather, it's a way of life for the airlines.

A week's waste at AA could feed a poor country for a year.

You'll get your decent wage when people quit believing the glamorous lies about the airline industry and steer clear of it. Far too many toolboxes looking for a home.

 

[limit]

The bottom line is that for the most part, where we live is home, plain and simple. I myself would never relocate just because the cost of living is cheaper somewhere else. We have familes and lives and moving is easier said than done. The cost of living in NY is out fo control with respect to home prices and property taxes.
I would just like a wage that factors in costs of living in addition to our responsibilities as aircraft mechanics. I don't belittle anyone who chooses to live in a lower cost state. I also don't subscribe to the view that those of us who work at the line stations in high cost area should simply "MOVE TO TULSA OR TEXAS WHERE IT COSTS LESS TO LIVE!" It is just not an option for many of us with ties where we now reside.
A decent wage is all I ask.

I could not agree with you more.
Moving is ok for some ,but not for others.
It has good and bad sides to it, and I can tell you that sometimes I wish I never left,and some times I am glad I did.
I made a decision and I have to live with it.
I would never suggest that you guys move.Even Fwaa has not sugested that ( at least in this thread).
Hell,even if all the line mechanics moved out,someone else will have to take their place and thus he ( the new employee)
will be in your shoes then.So really nothing will change.Anyone that says to you "move if you dont like it " is not
really thinking.
At the same time even though you guys are bitterly complaining ,and rightly so , I do not see anything that indicates you guys are
willing to do something ,anything, more than that.
Slow downs by disheartened employees, and union replacement drives are good.
They have also proven ineffective.For decades.What now?
Don't give me the " we need a new union ' line" ( I am not speaking of you here Hopeful),this is just BS.
Were is the outrage?
Its has come to overhaul vs Line and the result is division among the ranks.
This is not the way to go.
Do we need a new union ? Yes!
But even if we get it ,what will change?
Democratic principles are good but without the will to fight ,we will only be left with them,the principles, holding the bag.
If we are not willing to do something now,why will we then?
Yes TWU international will bring back bad contracts as usual; to get something better than what they keep bringing back,
we will have to hit the street.
If we have a different union ,one that will not bring back bad contracts and push for them to pass; we will still have to hit the
street to get something better.
Whats the difference?
I really do not see it in you guys.
I do see a lot of bravado.
Where is the outrage?
I only remember hearing of one chair throwing incident at a union meeting(?) in NY.
Everyone complains because the guys in overhaul keep voting certain kind of people in.
What about the line stations?
Why do you keep voting in all these guys that end up taking international jobs?
According to your writings here, some of the line union officers are as bad if not worse than
the base TWU products.How come ? Are you also duped?
Whats your excuse?
Every day the same,again and again.
What are you going to do about it?
Or are you waiting, for TWU, AA, or some guy hundreds of miles away to do it for you , when you don't
seem to want to stick your head out yourselves?