Challenge

[Ken MacTiernan]

Back in 2003 we took concessions to "save" the company from filing bankruptcy. These concessions were life changing, however without any snap back clause regaining what was sacrificed would be a long battle ahead of us.

What we face in this tentative agreement is not your ordinary concession contract... it is a PROFESSION KILLER! If this tentative agreement passes it will ensure an industry changing shift detrimental to our entire craft and profession. The language this tentative agreement carries will set the stage for damaging our profession as we know it. If passed it will spread like a cancer throughout the industry and we will be known as those who failed to stand their ground for all, those who are retiring, those still employed and those coming after us.

As TRUE union men and women it is our responsibility to stand together and protect our craft & profession. I would like to see why anyone would vote yes for this insult to our profession. No aliases, if you are voting yes state your reasoning. I would like to see what would make someone purposely sell out a skilled profession they entered freely because of a passion they have for doing what we do.

 

[TWU informer]

The profession killer happened when 1000+ A&P Licensed Scabs crossed the picket line at Northwest Airlines and busted the only Union attempting to "save" the profession.

Now we are all going to pretend that sending James C. Little and his band of TWU appointed sellouts back to the bargaining table is going to save the profession.

There are alot of reasons to be opposed to this T/A, but to pretend that sending TWU back to negotiations after their 25+ year history of quid-pro-quo agreements is going to "save the profession" is lacking in sane judgement.

Sure sending the TWU back might fix a few issues for one group or the other in this divide and conquer agreement, but "Save the Profession", the TWU...

..What the hell are you smoking?

 

[tech2101]

The profession killer happened when 1000+ A&P Licensed Scabs crossed the picket line at Northwest Airlines and busted the only Union attempting to "save" the profession.

Thank you for that. You forgot the part where are union brethren from the IAM, APFA, and ALPA, also did not honor our strike picket line (with a few exceptions). The IAM even performed struck work that was in our scope.

I have to agree with you here. The time to save the profession has long since passed. It is now an effort to regain what used to be very rewarding profession. I will be watching this unfold from my new and very rewarding career...outside the industry.

 

[Ed Norton]

Thank you for that. You forgot the part where are union brethren from the IAM, APFA, and ALPA, also did not honor our strike picket line (with a few exceptions). The IAM even performed struck work that was in our scope.

I have to agree with you here. The time to save the profession has long since passed. It is now an effort to regain what used to be very rewarding profession. I will be watching this unfold from my new and very rewarding career...outside the industry.

Lets not forget that corporate lackey TWU also conducted job fairs to hire crustaceous workers to replace strikers. What a p.o.s. union!

 

[whoop whoop]

Thank you for that. You forgot the part where are union brethren from the IAM, APFA, and ALPA, also did not honor our strike picket line (with a few exceptions). The IAM even performed struck work that was in our scope.

I have to agree with you here. The time to save the profession has long since passed. It is now an effort to regain what used to be very rewarding profession. I will be watching this unfold from my new and very rewarding career...outside the industry.

Let's not forget the ibt (teamsters) performing struck AMFA work. A union they have not been in years, they are a scab corporation.

 

[ReadyNow]

Back in 2003 we took concessions to "save" the company from filing bankruptcy. These concessions were life changing, however without any snap back clause regaining what was sacrificed would be a long battle ahead of us.

Any business or union that negotiates non market based compensation or prices will survive only as long as they can maintain monopoly pricing power.

The rest of the world, with improved distribution capability, can now compete in almost every maintenance market save line maintenance. With lower priced labor easily available, unions must make the case that they provide the company the better deal.

You can either negotiate the terms and conditions of your market pricing or let a BK judge do it for you.

I would guess that the companies pride in being the only legacy not to go BK is the only thing keeping AMR out of BK court today.

As far as saving the profession goes...that's what museums are for. Check out the blacksmith display at Colonial Williamsburg. I am sure the Smithsonian will have no trouble building a display honoring A&Ps.

 

[Tex-Mech]

What we face in this tentative agreement is not your ordinary concession contract... it is a PROFESSION KILLER!

Ken,

While I do value your efforts over the years in promoting the profession, I can't say that this contract is the profession killer, that was years ago. The profession took its first major blows back in the 80"s with b-scale and paying for medical, and the concession of prefunding. The profession was dealt a major setback with SRP's, and more weakening of language. The profession was revived in 2001 by the AMFA movement and contract at NWA. Just as fast as we enjoyed our AMFA raise, we gave it back without a fight, and then stood by and watched the same men that got us a raise be led to the slaughter. Not to mention the job fair in MCI.

The profession died when politics got in the way of unionism. Remember, when the AFL-CIO said it was okay to cross the rogue union (AMFA) picket line, just as they okayed the crossing of the rogue union (PATCO) picket line many years ago.

If you want a rally cry, the one your VP wrote about was perfect, that the contract is anti-union. That is what the mechanics that I work with on the dock and base are rallying behind. We all recognize that the profession is dead, but we don't want a contract that will divide us even more. Send them back and take out the divide and conquer BS, and the eagle increases.

Unionism Killer--yeah this would be the final blow of a 30 year effort. Profession Killer--a little late for that cry.

 

[Ed Norton]

Any business or union that negotiates non market based compensation or prices will survive only as long as they can maintain monopoly pricing power.

The rest of the world, with improved distribution capability, can now compete in almost every maintenance market save line maintenance. With lower priced labor easily available, unions must make the case that they provide the company the better deal.

You can either negotiate the terms and conditions of your market pricing or let a BK judge do it for you.

I would guess that the companies pride in being the only legacy not to go BK is the only thing keeping AMR out of BK court today.

As far as saving the profession goes...that's what museums are for. Check out the blacksmith display at Colonial Williamsburg. I am sure the Smithsonian will have no trouble building a display honoring A&Ps.

Take your display and insert it dry. Go ahead and shill for the man. He has no loyalty, even to his minoins. You will get yours too.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

"As far as saving the profession goes...that's what museums are for. Check out the blacksmith display at Colonial Williamsburg. I am sure the Smithsonian will have no trouble building a display honoring A&Ps."

Bad example ReadyNow. Museums display important/relevant aircraft (Since we are AMTs I assume this is the type of museum you are referring to.), due to their technological achievements. Not because AMTs are less important. Blacksmithing was overcome by technological advancements that lessened the need for blacksmiths. Aircraft maintenance needs AMTs to stay lockstep with each technological advancement; which we have done since December 1903.

"While I do value your efforts over the years in promoting the profession, I can't say that this contract is the profession killer, that was years ago. The profession took its first major blows back in the 80"s with b-scale and paying for medical, and the concession of prefunding. The profession was dealt a major setback with SRP's, and more weakening of language."

Tex-Mex

My point in that this t/a being a profession killer as compared to the good examples you make is that with the first black eyes our profession took with B Scale, SRPs and medical I feel can be fought through negotiating. (Please, I do not need to digress into this subject and have this thread veer off.) As battered as our profession is we are still standing however this t/a is the "blind sided round house kick to the temple" and we collectively need to fend of this blow by voting NO soundly. If this t/a connects we are down for the count because there will be no standing 10 count, it will be lights out, "Good night Nurse!".

"Now we are all going to pretend that sending James C. Little and his band of TWU appointed sellouts back to the bargaining table is going to save the profession.

There are alot of reasons to be opposed to this T/A, but to pretend that sending TWU back to negotiations after their 25+ year history of quid-pro-quo agreements is going to "save the profession" is lacking in sane judgement."

TWU Informer

I never said anything about pretending that Little and his band would "save the profession". I never even implied it. What I did say was that this t/a needs to be rejected overwhelmingly because if it does pass it will not matter who's name our dues are paid to. The TWU does not stand to lose much if this passes. If it passes the near future will see Eagle grow and AA shrink. Eagle AMTs are represented by the TWU. So, the TWU loses a little in one hand but gains a little in the other hand.

This t/a is poison. Pure and simple. For people to try and peddle this t/a and point to the PATHETIC financial improvements is cowardice at best. To peddle this t/a and NOT inform people of the ramifications the concessionary language holds for us is self serving as well as anti-union.

 

[High Speed Steel]

"As far as saving the profession goes...that's what museums are for. Check out the blacksmith display at Colonial Williamsburg. I am sure the Smithsonian will have no trouble building a display honoring A&Ps."

Bad example ReadyNow. Museums display important/relevant aircraft (Since we are AMTs I assume this is the type of museum you are referring to.), due to their technological achievements. Not because AMTs are less important. Blacksmithing was overcome by technological advancements that lessened the need for blacksmiths. Aircraft maintenance needs AMTs to stay lockstep with each technological advancement; which we have done since December 1903.

"While I do value your efforts over the years in promoting the profession, I can't say that this contract is the profession killer, that was years ago. The profession took its first major blows back in the 80"s with b-scale and paying for medical, and the concession of prefunding. The profession was dealt a major setback with SRP's, and more weakening of language."

Tex-Mex

My point in that this t/a being a profession killer as compared to the good examples you make is that with the first black eyes our profession took with B Scale, SRPs and medical I feel can be fought through negotiating. (Please, I do not need to digress into this subject and have this thread veer off.) As battered as our profession is we are still standing however this t/a is the "blind sided round house kick to the temple" and we collectively need to fend of this blow by voting NO soundly. If this t/a connects we are down for the count because there will be no standing 10 count, it will be lights out, "Good night Nurse!".

"Now we are all going to pretend that sending James C. Little and his band of TWU appointed sellouts back to the bargaining table is going to save the profession.

There are alot of reasons to be opposed to this T/A, but to pretend that sending TWU back to negotiations after their 25+ year history of quid-pro-quo agreements is going to "save the profession" is lacking in sane judgement."

TWU Informer

I never said anything about pretending that Little and his band would "save the profession". I never even implied it. What I did say was that this t/a needs to be rejected overwhelmingly because if it does pass it will not matter who's name our dues are paid to. The TWU does not stand to lose much if this passes. If it passes the near future will see Eagle grow and AA shrink. Eagle AMTs are represented by the TWU. So, the TWU loses a little in one hand but gains a little in the other hand.

This t/a is poison. Pure and simple. For people to try and peddle this t/a and point to the PATHETIC financial improvements is cowardice at best. To peddle this t/a and NOT inform people of the ramifications the concessionary language holds for us is self serving as well as anti-union.

Ah hell ken, you still crack me up. AMT's staying lockstep since 1903? Going back that far means that the first AMT you refer too was a Machinist. You better find yourself a Machinist and learn to hang on to his coat tails if you want to be around in this new and improved industry...WE are the TWU, WE are evolving and we refuse to dissolve...hahaha

 

[Hopeful]

Ah hell ken, you still crack me up. AMT's staying lockstep since 1903? Going back that far means that the first AMT you refer too was a Machinist. You better find yourself a Machinist and learn to hang on to his coat tails if you want to be around in this new and improved industry...WE are the TWU, WE are evolving and we refuse to dissolve...hahaha

So, the IAM (International Association Of Machinists} has only represented Machinists?

 

[Tex-Mech]

WE are the TWU, WE are evolving and we refuse to dissolve...

Any idea what that means. Is it that we will accept $7.25 an hour for cleaners just to keep the dues coming in?

 

[JFK Fleet Service]

Any idea what that means. Is it that we will accept $7.25 an hour for cleaners just to keep the dues coming in?

The TWU is getting their thirty pieces of silver,what do they care?

 

[TWU informer]

TWU Informer

I never said anything about pretending that Little and his band would "save the profession". I never even implied it. What I did say was that this t/a needs to be rejected overwhelmingly because if it does pass it will not matter who's name our dues are paid to. The TWU does not stand to lose much if this passes. If it passes the near future will see Eagle grow and AA shrink. Eagle AMTs are represented by the TWU. So, the TWU loses a little in one hand but gains a little in the other hand.

This t/a is poison. Pure and simple. For people to try and peddle this t/a and point to the PATHETIC financial improvements is cowardice at best. To peddle this t/a and NOT inform people of the ramifications the concessionary language holds for us is self serving as well as anti-union.

Jim Little and his band of appointee's run this union and you know it. Rejecting the T/A simply sends them back to offer a cookie to one of the rejecting groups. My bet is the current O/H AMT gets more than .81 in a raise and this passes.

Eagle has been growing on the domestic side in ASM's and AA shrinking for over 15 years now. If and when the T/A is rejected this ASM change will NOT be one of the items changed when Jim Little returns his puupets to the negotiating table. Neither will the new classification, the loss of defined pension for a new hire.

Just as in 1983 and the B-Scale, the new hire will decide what the profession is worth by either becoming employed or not. Once the terms of emlpoyment are explained then the new hire can either refuse or take the job. If you want to save the profession, you would have to stand outside the employment office and tell them not to take the job. The sad truth is if AA can hire AMT's for low wages, and very little benefits then that is what the profession is worth.

Once the immigration reform happens in this country and all the illegals are made legal, they will be offered welfare for training in exchange for becoming legal and many of them we be replacing most of us in this industry. The manuals will be will be written in both English and Espanol.

I dont hear anyone trying to "peddle" this T/A as adequate. Most YES voters are quietly wating for their ballot. It is only the ANTI-Crowd that we hear and they are loud but are they the majority?

I think we agree that the failures in this T/A are many.

Here is a real CHALLENGE for you...

...If the T/A is rejected, please list the flaws you honestly think the TWU will change or correct. Then list the flaws you think will remain in place. I have yet to hear a real plan of how to fix this POS, or even a real belief as to what will get fixed once this is rejected.

All I hear is every one clamoring about what a POS this is and how it will destroy the profession.

Tell us your plan and what demands you would take forward as must be corrected flaws in this agreement. Give us a specific list of what it takes for you to be satisfied, and then list how many of those in your list will be fixed by sending the TWU back to negotiations. I would be very interested to hear specifics from you or anyone else that holds elected office drawing a paycheck from this union while clamoring about how the same union is destroying the profession.

 

[iluvaa]

A double dip recession 10% unemployment, this country and company run by fools I just wanna hang in there to retire I dont care any more about your fight bad on the blood pressure. We are not gonna win never have never will. I would be just fine without a union at all vote YES