Delta Chairman/ceo Announces Plans To Step Down

[aislehopper]

Yes aislehopper, I agree with all 3 things you just said.

Where it gets INTERESTING is how much, if at all(and you know where I stand on give backs), will DALPA conceed between now and 2005.

scenario;

1. DALPA gives DL what they want, then the LESS all the other employees get "Jammed" by management. !!!

2. Medium concessions = MEDIUM "Jammed" !!!

3. "Nada" until 2005 = MAJOR LEAGUE "Jammed" !!!

Yup, MANAGEMENT. The same "Clowns" that get the golden parachutes, make OBSCENE money for their "supposed" brilliance, and signed the present contract with DALPA(who have upheld their end of the bargain, TO THE LETTER) !!!

NH/BB's

Ps,

Aislehopper, I KNOW you believe me when I say, that this post is NOT intended to "beat you up", but to allude to what you already know, that DL is in for some "Very Heavy $$$$$ Weather" !!!

When Carty was threatening to file Chapter 11, he gave each of the unions a target concession amount. The contribution that each union gave was totalled to approximate waht AMR needed to survive.

We are in a similiar process at Delta. Management has figured the cuts in each department, and each department head has figured out how to wring this amount from the employees.

My guess is that the non union groups at Delta have seen the worst of what is going to happen. Our morale is suffering. The company is going to have to do something to repair it. Squeezing us harder will not be a step in the right direction.

My next guess is that the company offer was desigend with some wiggle room so that ALPA and Delta could bargain to some point in the middle.

It is in DALPA's best interest to work with the company. They could hold fast and give no concessions. They could hold fast and not negotiate concessions in the bargaining process for the next contract. They could then strike if the company imposed a contract. However, each day that our costs are not in line with the LCC's is a day the LCC's grow stronger at our expense. If the trend continues, the LCC's will eventually replace us.

We have some bright men and women piloting our aircraft. (IMHO, the best in the industry.) It is in their long term interest to give concessions that still leave them best paid in the industry so that they can be best paid in the industry 5, 10, 25, 30 years from now.


regarding your ps, the two of us have been debating our respective diametrically opposed positions for years without beating each other up. I do not expect this to change. Also, I do agree that this company is in for Heavy Weather. However, heavy weather makes us appreciate blue skies and fair winds on the other side.

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

aislehopper;
I agree, on all your points.

However,(like over here at AA), TIME WILL TELL.

IMHO, DALPA members, are "not their brothers keepers", meaning that knowing DL will cut their pay(which they bargained in GOOD FAITH for), they(IMHO) should hold out as long as possible, make as much as possible, irregardless of the fact that a lot of NON union employees think that DALPA has an obligation to rescue THEM.
Now, if EVERY DL NON union employee, DOES'NT feel that DALPA has some "do it for the team" obligation to them, then you and I are in agreement, on the BIG PICTURE.

NH/BB's

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

NHBB - With all due respect, how are employees at AMR, UAL, or U any better protected than the employees at DAL? What has the union bought it's members at those airlines? If it's damned if you do and damned if you don't, thn it seems to me that Delta employees are ahead of the game in that they don't have to pay union dues every month.

KCFlyer,
I'm a little surprised at this particular post !!!!!

I'm sure you realize that the "good ol' boys" at HDQ, would have cut EVEN deeper if we did'nt have the CRAPPY union that we have.

Net result(believe it or not) we are(somewhat) better off with the "weak sister" TWU.

NH/BB's

 

[LiveInAHotel]

(or had them imposed).

That's exactly what they have done to the non-union groups at DL. I think you have been living on the "Good Ship Delta" to long. Good luck with everything at DL.

 

[aislehopper]

Now, if EVERY DL NON union employee, DOES'NT feel that DALPA has some "do it for the team" obligation to them, then you and I are in agreement, on the BIG PICTURE.

NH/BB's

NH/BB's:

You are right. The pilots do not have an obligation to me or anyone else at the company. They can take their marbles and go home. However, I do not think that they will do it.

IMHO, any pilot concessions will be for one purpose only, long term viability of Delta.

As we all know, seniority rules in this industry. If Delta goes out of business, we all start at the bottom at another carrier - if we can find jobs in the industry at all.
At the bottom, pay and benefits will be significantly less than pay and benefits at Delta after concessions.

I believe that our pilots will come up with a solution that guarantees Delta's future. Short term concessions should help guarantee the long term viability of Delta and keep all of us from shopping for a new employer later in life.

 

[aislehopper]

(or had them imposed).

That's exactly what they have done to the non-union groups at DL. I think you have been living on the "Good Ship Delta" to long. Good luck with everything at DL.

If our "imposed" work rules and pay are at or better than the workrules and pay of the negotiated contracts of our industry peers, why negotiate?

 

[LiveInAHotel]

aislehopper,

Interesting how ALPA only offered Delta 9% on pay concessions. No near close to what Delta wanted from its pilots. Like the Delta 767 Captain on my street said "Majority of the Delta Pilots will be voting no." So, tell me how do you think they will get the rest? I can answer that for you...NON UNION EMPLOYEE GROUPS! Why you ask? Because they can anytime they feel like it. I wish you the best.

 

[flyhigh]

liveinahotel...if you're so sure they will extract from other groups, why haven't they already??? The reality is because they don't need to nor could they. Unlike most of you would like to think, nobody is sitting around looking for ways to screw people. Understanding that the economy is improving around us, there is a tremendous fear at DL that there will be a hug brain drain next year as the Home Depot's, UPS's, Georgia Pacific's, etc. of the area will be able to drag people out of Delta HQ quite easily. The reality is that if DL pilots accept the wages the company has proposed (which would keep them highest paid...exactly what they demanded aft UA signed their contract) Delta would be close to, and possibly profitable and profitable next year. Now, what is in the best interest of pilots? Working for a profitable company that can compete or working for one that will come close to bankruptcy, suffer tremendous loss of intelectual capital, and require them to take an even deeper cut??? Wish some of you would understand how people in the HQ environment actually think as opposed to inserting your personal delusions of granduer as a slice of what you assume it is like....

 

[LiveInAHotel]

The reality is because they don't need to nor could they.

Are you sure they cant? DL can do whatever they please at anytime. You have no contract to protect your pay, work rules etc. That means DL can cut your pay and change your work rules as they please. HMMM, I think that has already been done. The new DL mainline f/a pay scale and work rules look just like Song.

The DL Pilots have a CONTRACT! If they so choose to not give a damn thing up they don't have to. Your management team signed on the old dotted line to give your Pilots that fat pay increase. If they vote NO, then who else is DL going to ask for concessions? Nobody! They don't have to, because nobody else has a CONTRACT! They will just take it! Make sure they give you a golden parachute too!

 

[KCFlyer]

Are you sure they cant? DL can do whatever they please at anytime. You have no contract to protect your pay, work rules etc. That means DL can cut your pay and change your work rules as they please. HMMM, I think that has already been done. The new DL mainline f/a pay scale and work rules look just like Song.

The DL Pilots have a CONTRACT! If they so choose to not give a damn thing up they don't have to. Your management team signed on the old dotted line to give your Pilots that fat pay increase. If they vote NO, then who else is DL going to ask for concessions? Nobody! They don't have to, because nobody else has a CONTRACT! They will just take it! Make sure they give you a golden parachute too!

That was one fine rant, live...but tell me...how did a contract protect the union members at America, United and USAirways, to name a few? Seems they have had some cuts in pay and some changes in work rules, or have I just been reading a fairy tale for the past 12 months or so??

 

[luv2fly]

That was one fine rant, live...but tell me...how did a contract protect the union members at America, United and USAirways, to name a few? Seems they have had some cuts in pay and some changes in work rules, or have I just been reading a fairy tale for the past 12 months or so??

Well KC,

I was furloughed as a result of the Iraq war. If it wasn't for the union contract, I would not be back on the property today. In my opinion, my dues just paid off. Call it what you want. That contract brought me back to work.

 

[DVT]

I was furloughed as a result of the Iraq war. If it wasn't for the union contract, I would not be back on the property today. In my opinion, my dues just paid off. Call it what you want. That contract brought me back to work.

Luv;

Your contract didn't bring you back. Delta did. Additional pilots were needed for the increasing loads as confidence and travel increased following the war.

The FM furloughees will be back also, because they will be needed to fly more and larger airplanes. Not because the contract stipulates that pilots stay on the payroll when there are no passengers to fly.

 

[luv2fly]

Luv;

Your contract didn't bring you back. Delta did. Additional pilots were needed for the increasing loads as confidence and travel increased following the war.

The FM furloughees will be back also, because they will be needed to fly more and larger airplanes. Not because the contract stipulates that pilots stay on the payroll when there are no passengers to fly.

Welcome back DVT.

Delta pilots were needed for increasing loads? Why then did Delta only retrain approximately 40 of the 250 pilots recalled? Why are those remaining pilots now being told they will not attend training until next spring at the earliest? SIL's (special incentive lines) are still being given out in most categories. For those who don't know, these are empty lines of time that pay 50 hours credit with no flying obligation for the month. They were created specifically to address overstaffing in certain categories, and are a good indicator as to staffing needs. Granted they have decreased in numbers, but the simple fact they are still being offered gaurantees that Delta did not return these pilots because of increasing loads or necessity.

The FM I furloughees will be back when the RPM levels set forth by the arbitrator are achieved, or when Delta is forced to bring them back due to extremely low staffing levels. Those conditions do not yet exist.

 

[DLFlyer31]

Luv;

Your contract didn't bring you back. Delta did. Additional pilots were needed for the increasing loads as confidence and travel increased following the war.

The FM furloughees will be back also, because they will be needed to fly more and larger airplanes. Not because the contract stipulates that pilots stay on the payroll when there are no passengers to fly.

Welcome back DVT.

Delta pilots were needed for increasing loads? Why then did Delta only retrain approximately 40 of the 250 pilots recalled? Why are those remaining pilots now being told they will not attend training until next spring at the earliest? SIL's (special incentive lines) are still being given out in most categories. For those who don't know, these are empty lines of time that pay 50 hours credit with no flying obligation for the month. They were created specifically to address overstaffing in certain categories, and are a good indicator as to staffing needs. Granted they have decreased in numbers, but the simple fact they are still being offered gaurantees that Delta did not return these pilots because of increasing loads or necessity.

The FM I furloughees will be back when the RPM levels set forth by the arbitrator are achieved, or when Delta is forced to bring them back due to extremely low staffing levels. Those conditions do not yet exist.

So basically your contract stipulates that you should get paid to sit around and do nothing and that DL should keep pilots on the payroll that it doesn't need. You guys really are management employees afterall. 😀

While I agree that unions have done a lot to protect workers rights, clauses like this are why unions have a bad name.

 

[luv2fly]

So basically your contract stipulates that you should get paid to sit around and do nothing and that DL should keep pilots on the payroll that it doesn't need. You guys really are management employees afterall. 😀

While I agree that unions have done a lot to protect workers rights, clauses like this are why unions have a bad name.

"So basically your contract stipulates that you should get paid to sit around and do nothing and that DL should keep pilots on the payroll that it doesn't need."

Absolutely not. The contract allows DL to legally furlough pilots based on certain events which are outside company control. ie 9-11. Thus the FM clause. The question then becomes when is that event no longer applicable? The key term is "outside company control." The contract does attempt to protect livelyhood for circumstances under which the company does have control. You may not agree that such clauses ethical or practical. I would argue that they are necessary, especially when airlines have historically demostrated a constant abuse of what you refer to as workers rights. I would refer to it as an abuse of employee trust.


BTW...The creation of the SIL's were mutually agreed to by Delta and ALPA as a way to help reduce costs and ease the burden on the training pipeline.
And if I am a "mangement employee," when do I get my 16 million dollar compensation package? 😀