Delta won't die after all

[Busdrvr]

Everybody agreed to it during better financial times. You know that.
What am I complaining about?? My pay and working conditions match what the market can bear. I would actually complain (though probably quietly) if my wages were double what they are b/c I have the forsense to know that such rates would cripple and potentially dismantle my company and my job. THAT is what I'm trying to get through to you...unions weren't created as a mechanism to support continuously increasing wages despite the economic environment. I doubt that unions would seek out maintaining or increasing pay during the great depression. Why ask for this now during the "great airline industry depression"?? Because they have evolved into businesses that only look to make a profit for the union leadership and therefore the choices they make are not based on what a company/industry can sustain. My current wages/conditions ARE based on what the market will bear. I can't rah, rah with you there, my friend. You haven't come close to recruiting me. Good luck in your future recruiting attempts.

-chapter 12

NOT. You are not in a free market. The management of DAL gets to decide who makes what, so they pay themselves first, then the rest goes to the employees. If DAL is still losing money, then obviously you are paid above market rates. I'd think the value of a manager in a company that can't make money is somewhere less than ZERO. Based on your posts, I'm thinking you'd settle for much less, and DAL should by all accounts see if they can get you to settle for less. Last I saw, there wasn't a huge market for failed managers. Do you make more than your buddies at Air Tran? After all, they pay more to the guys flying a 737 than you do. Sounds to me like they are actually managing, and you're making excuses. Why can't you make money while paying the same rates as a SWA or Air Tran? Why must you pay less? Are the managers at DAL incompetent? Would you leaving be a good thing for DAL? Maybe then they could get some managers that can actually run a business. And as a bonus, they'd be on newhire pay.

 

[deltawatch]

I'm not sure where you get this info, but it's wrong. I can think of one city on the east coast that started out with regional service and then switched to mainline (MHT)....I know there are several that went the other direction (mainline to regional).

Delta was in those "key east coast cities" all along with mainline service.

Abe

Norfolk, Richmond, Greensboro, Charleston SC, Asheville NC to name a few.

And US Air had big jets in Roanoke, Lynchburg, Charleston WV, Fayetteville, Wilmington, Tri-Cities, MYR, Savannah Greenville N and SC .... on and on and on. Delta hit them with cheap Comair labor and these cities lost there loads and there big jet service and US mainline employees lost there work.

 

[Ch. 12]

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Brother,
I'm Not trying to recruit you !!
I'm just SIMPLY pointing out, that you would be $$$ in a better position now, during these tough times.

I'm just SIMPLY pointing out that As DALPA "backs down" DL, that DL will make up the difference of the $325 Million, that they DID'NT get from DALPA, out of YOU !!!
NH/BB's

Right...and you want me to blame mgmt for that?! Seems we need unions to protect us from other greedy unions and not mgmt. Greedy get greedier and you have pointed out exactly who is at fault...and it wasn't mgmt in your little scenario. Don't get me wrong...I'm not exonerating mgmt but you need to face the reality of a bad economy (yawn...I'm getting tired of telling you this) and an even more destructive force than mgmt.

 

[luv2fly]

Right...and you want me to blame mgmt for that?! Seems we need unions to protect us from other greedy unions and not mgmt. Greedy get greedier and you have pointed out exactly who is at fault...and it wasn't mgmt in your little scenario. Don't get me wrong...I'm not exonerating mgmt but you need to face the reality of a bad economy (yawn...I'm getting tired of telling you this) and an even more destructive force than mgmt.

I suppose the unions are to blame for all the non-contract employee paycuts and benefit cuts. The only reason the non-contract employees got what they did for many years was because DL had to in order to keep them from unionizing. 20 billion in debt is not attributed to unions. It almost entirely attributed to poor decision making, and last time I checked, the unions don't make those kind of decisions. The employee groups at DL have been the scapegoats for a series of misguided management teams. We are the ones paying off the debt of all that stupidity.

 

[deltawatch]

Don't you see what happened to Delta ..... Delta mgt bet the farm they could run US Air out of business and the government step in and help US turn it around. Employees at US lost everything. Can't wait to see Deltas NEW business plan....

 

[Bimbels]

NH/BB's
Addressed to........Bimbels and Ch. 12.

PERHAPS your pay and working conditions, that your "pointing out" to us here, MAY be more "bearable" now, if your respective workgroups had voted YES to union representation the few times you've had the chance, over these past years ?????????
NH/BB's

I agree with you 100% - MAYBE things might be different for FAs with union representation - I've been a union activist for several years and totally believe in the power of solidarity. I have noticed, though, that union representation hasn't done a whole lot for ANY particular group in BK court. So while we may have staved off cuts, I have no doubt they would have come eventually.

My "pointing out" my working conditions has nothing to do with whether or not I have a union. I was ONLY to remind those who seem to forget that it's not all about them that other departments have had to "sacrifice" - and those from the pilots are NO LESS painful to them as they are for us. Half my pay being cut is just as painful as half of a pilots being cut. And YES, I have taken that big of a cut - though I could make up the pay if I chose to relinquish any semblence of a life, and never see my husband and kids. But I prefer to fly the same amt. of hours as prior to "the better way."

 

[WorldTraveler]

Part of the problem is that the airline industry is unique in that there are a certain number of jobs such as f/as and pilots that cannot be outsourced or replaced by technology. airlines have succeeded at replacing some agents with kiosks, res agents w/ foreign workers or voice response units, mechanics with foreign labor.... yes, some jobs can be outsourced to regional carriers but one of the most important aspects of union philosophy that I do agree with is that unions must hold the line on the amount of outsourcing to regional carriers that major carriers are permitted to do. Delta gave management tremendous latitude with 50 seat regional jets in the 90s and has agreed to pretty extensive 70 seat flying now. Delta and other majors can certainly survive and thrive with the current scope provisions. Pilots have held the line on outsourcing to regional carriers and all other employees have benefitted. Yes, I understand that economically a company will argue that if they can't turn themselves around, they simply have to cut deeper elsewhere. I'm not convinced that many of the scope changes that have been enacted are really necessary for survival but are part of a campaign to remake the labor component of the industry. I believe all airline employees should support the pilots in limiting outsourcing since they have been the most successful in holding the line.

 

[MMB]

Not sure what MHT's new schedule is but alot cities will have much less capacity to hubs.

4441 MHTATL 800A
4511 MHTATL 1211P
4545 MHTATL 545A
4765 MHTATL 555P
4820 MHTATL 300P
4987 MHTCVG 530A
4995 MHTCVG 500P
5885 MHTCVG 1040A


MB

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

I agree with you 100% - MAYBE things might be different for FAs with union representation - I've been a union activist for several years and totally believe in the power of solidarity. I have noticed, though, that union representation hasn't done a whole lot for ANY particular group in BK court. So while we may have staved off cuts, I have no doubt they would have come eventually.

My "pointing out" my working conditions has nothing to do with whether or not I have a union. I was ONLY to remind those who seem to forget that it's not all about them that other departments have had to "sacrifice" - and those from the pilots are NO LESS painful to them as they are for us. Half my pay being cut is just as painful as half of a pilots being cut. And YES, I have taken that big of a cut - though I could make up the pay if I chose to relinquish any semblence of a life, and never see my husband and kids. But I prefer to fly the same amt. of hours as prior to "the better way."

==========================================================

bimbels,

A good post/(reply).

My hat is "off" to you.
(and)
I salute you !!

NH/BB's

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

Part of the problem is that the airline industry is unique in that there are a certain number of jobs such as f/as and pilots that cannot be outsourced or replaced by technology. airlines have succeeded at replacing some agents with kiosks, res agents w/ foreign workers or voice response units, mechanics with foreign labor.... yes, some jobs can be outsourced to regional carriers but one of the most important aspects of union philosophy that I do agree with is that unions must hold the line on the amount of outsourcing to regional carriers that major carriers are permitted to do. Delta gave management tremendous latitude with 50 seat regional jets in the 90s and has agreed to pretty extensive 70 seat flying now. Delta and other majors can certainly survive and thrive with the current scope provisions. Pilots have held the line on outsourcing to regional carriers and all other employees have benefitted. Yes, I understand that economically a company will argue that if they can't turn themselves around, they simply have to cut deeper elsewhere. I'm not convinced that many of the scope changes that have been enacted are really necessary for survival but are part of a campaign to remake the labor component of the industry. I believe all airline employees should support the pilots in limiting outsourcing since they have been the most successful in holding the line.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

WorldTraveler,

"Strange but True" !!
I AGREE with you, on your above post !!

NH/BB's

 

[gso-crew]

Part of the problem is that the airline industry is unique in that there are a certain number of jobs such as f/as and pilots that cannot be outsourced or replaced by technology. airlines have succeeded at replacing some agents with kiosks, res agents w/ foreign workers or voice response units, mechanics with foreign labor.... yes, some jobs can be outsourced to regional carriers but one of the most important aspects of union philosophy that I do agree with is that unions must hold the line on the amount of outsourcing to regional carriers that major carriers are permitted to do. Delta gave management tremendous latitude with 50 seat regional jets in the 90s and has agreed to pretty extensive 70 seat flying now. Delta and other majors can certainly survive and thrive with the current scope provisions. Pilots have held the line on outsourcing to regional carriers and all other employees have benefited. Yes, I understand that economically a company will argue that if they can't turn themselves around, they simply have to cut deeper elsewhere. I'm not convinced that many of the scope changes that have been enacted are really necessary for survival but are part of a campaign to remake the labor component of the industry. I believe all airline employees should support the pilots in limiting outsourcing since they have been the most successful in holding the line.

US Air unions held the line in the 90's while Delta unions allowed their company to pick Us Airs mid-Atlantic a part with cheap Comair and ASA labor. All Delta unions cared about was siphoning off passengers and once they got enough grow Delta's mainline. Ultimate goal was to put all US Air crews on the street.

 

[WorldTraveler]

despite an aweful lot of people being convinced that DL was out to put US out of business, I don't think there is any evidence to that effect at all.

The reality is that DL had dozens of regional jets available to pick off some of US' top markets - esp. since US' labor groups refused to allow many RJs on their property for years. DL succeeded in picking off soem of the top markets from many SE/mid-Atlantic cities and in so doing became the dominant carrier in some of those markets which were previously dominated by US.

It simply makes good sense for any company to look for opportunities to grow its revenues, even if it's at the expense of a competitor. I don't think anyone could reasonably thing DL or AA could put each other out of business but both have been engaged in a 10 year long incursion in each other's markets ie. DL into Latin America, NYC, and transcons; AA into more Florida, continental Europe, and most recently ATL. Having AA and DL compete against each other is probably better for each other than if either has to compete against an LCC.

 

[gso-crew]

Delta mainline pilots allowed Comair and ASA pilots working for peanuts to pick off US Air mainline jobs in 80's and 90's, plain and simple. US Air pilots fought for the future of all mainline careers by holding on to their scope. It cost may of them their jobs.