Delta's upcoming order for wide-bodies

[CLTRob]

For the past several months I have read articles of Delta's upcoming order(s) for wide-bodies.  I have read that Delta is interested in the A330-900, A350-900, B787-9 and B772's.  Any speculation of which aircraft(s) Delta might go with?  From what I have read, the order is expected during Q4-2014.  For transatlantic and South America, I am hoping the new aircraft will consist of a 2-3-2 or 2-4-2 layout as I refuse to fly a long-haul flight on an aircraft that has a 3-3-3 or 3-4-3 layout.  Since it appears that Delta is so much "customer focused", if the B772/3 is ordered, I hope that the Economy Comfort section of the aircraft has a layout of 2-3-2 or 2-4-2.

 

[WorldTraveler]

first, DL's view of Economy Comfort is more pitch but not a different seating configuration so if you don't like what DL has as the configuration in the economy cabin, you won't like what DL has in EC.

the 777 is a 9 abreast aircraft or greater... which means that it is impossible to put only 2 seats on the side.
the 767 provides the greatest percentage of window or aisle seats of any widebody but the 767 doesn't have the range to be a 14+ hour airplane.
next up would be the 330 which can go those distances and so far as we know is still under consideration.

rumors are a dime a dozen but DL execs hinted on the earnings conference call just a few weeks ago that prices for used 772ERs are falling fast enough that they are now under consideration regardless of their higher fuel burn relative to the new generation of aircraft.

when you factor in that some analysts are saying that the world is on the verge of a lengthy period of relatively low fuel prices as suppliers keep capacity up in order to flush other suppliers out of the market, the economics of new generation aircraft relative to current generation aircraft at much lower acquisition prices looks a whole lot different.

DL was supposedly close to a couple of deals for used 773ERs and they still might nail some down by there are 1500 787s and 350s on order for delivery over the next few years which will push down the value of 772ERs.

DL will likely order a combination of 787s, 350s or 330s, and some used 777s in one form or another.

you can look at how other airlines are configuring those aircraft and decide if you want to fly on them. it isn't likely that DL is going to add significantly more or less seats than other airlines.

 

[700UW]

Where are the A340s that you said they were going to buy?

 

[WorldTraveler]

I said they were a possibility based on the same principle.... low enough acquisition prices would favor at least some used aircraft over all new. DL is buying 100 new 739ERs alongside 717s and M90s. both have advantages. the same will be true of 787s or 350s alongside whatever used widebodies DL buys.

the 772ER is a far more capable and overall better aircraft than the 340 if that is what they choose to do. but Airbus managed to get 10 HGW 333s into DL's fleet that will be in service in less than six months and will be capable of crossing even more of the Pacific... who would have thought anyone would have referred to a 333 as a serious TPAC aircraft a decade ago.

it is likely that some used aircraft will be part of the deal along with a mixture of updated current technology aircraft (favoring the 330) and new generation (787s/350s).

 

[700UW]

They didnt buy the 717s they are subleased.
 
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-05-22/southwest-agrees-to-sublease-88-boeing-717-jets-to-delta-air.html

 

[WorldTraveler]

yes, that is technically correct. the expectation is that DL will buy them off of lease when the leases terminate.

since you want to wordsmith, I didn't say DL is buying 717s.

I said they were buying 739ERs alongside 717s and M90s.

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

I said they were buying 739ERs alongside 717s and M90s.

Doesn't alongside mean 'together with'?

 

[WorldTraveler]

in this context, no.

 

[topDawg]

They didnt buy the 717s they are subleased.
 
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-05-22/southwest-agrees-to-sublease-88-boeing-717-jets-to-delta-air.html

FWIW in 7ish years when they come off lease Delta will own them, per Anderson. 
 

the 772ER is a far more capable and overall better aircraft than the 340 if that is what they choose to do. but Airbus managed to get 10 HGW 333s into DL's fleet that will be in service in less than six months and will be capable of crossing even more of the Pacific... who would have thought anyone would have referred to a 333 as a serious TPAC aircraft a decade ago.

two things. 
the 242t 333 isn't a "serious" TPAC aircraft. It can't even make HKG from the west coast. Much less fly something like DTW-HKG which a 77E can do. Its a kind-of tpac aircraft like the 767-300ER is. (Japan, South Korea, some of China and thats about it)  
 
second, getting the 333 to 242t had a much better chance than the stupid pilot rumor of the 346 coming to an airline who has repeatedly said they are done with 4 engine aircraft. You picked up a cockpit hope and ran with it. Logic be damned.  
 

For the past several months I have read articles of Delta's upcoming order(s) for wide-bodies.  I have read that Delta is interested in the A330-900, A350-900, B787-9 and B772's.  Any speculation of which aircraft(s) Delta might go with?  From what I have read, the order is expected during Q4-2014.  For transatlantic and South America, I am hoping the new aircraft will consist of a 2-3-2 or 2-4-2 layout as I refuse to fly a long-haul flight on an aircraft that has a 3-3-3 or 3-4-3 layout.  Since it appears that Delta is so much "customer focused", if the B772/3 is ordered, I hope that the Economy Comfort section of the aircraft has a layout of 2-3-2 or 2-4-2.

I expect a mix of 787s and 350s. 

 

[WorldTraveler]

given that HKG is 1/2 way along the Pacific rim, it isn't exactly the yardstick for whether a plane can make it or not.

DTW-HKG was the longest TPAC flight DL operated. It was flown by an LR, not an ER.

the 333 can easily do SEA-PVG and all of the west coast and Midwest to Japan and Korea.

of course the 777 can do a lot the 330 can't do but when the new 333s can easily fly 13 hour flights - 80% of what the 772ER can do, the game is no longer just about 777s.

and fortunately, DL can find plenty of uses for 772ERS, including from MSP, LAX, or SEA to a big chunk of Asia.

DL very likely will be picking up used high quality widebodies just because there are enough available at good prices.

 

[700UW]

And those 717s are owned by Boeing Capital, not WN.

 

[topDawg]

given that HKG is 1/2 way along the Pacific rim, it isn't exactly the yardstick for whether a plane can make it or not.

I can't think of a another airplane designed for TPAC flying that can't do west coast to HKG. 

DTW-HKG was the longest TPAC flight DL operated. It was flown by an LR, not an ER.

I didn't say Delta did it with a 200ER, I said it can be done with a 200ER. Hell EWR-HKG can be done with a 200ER. 
 

of course the 777 can do a lot the 330 can't do but when the new 333s can easily fly 13 hour flights - 80% of what the 772ER can do, the game is no longer just about 777s.

its closer to 75% FWIW. (at least when comparing Delta's planes with each other) 
 
 

and fortunately, DL can find plenty of uses for 772ERS, including from MSP, LAX, or SEA to a big chunk of Asia.

I'm sure they "could" but these 333s will be replacing 744s. You'll see LAX/MSP/DTW-NRT go to the 333 and the 777 come back to DTW-ICN/PVG and maybe PEK (and the 332 go to NGO) 
 

DL very likely will be picking up used high quality 777s just because there are enough available at good prices.

Fixed that for you. You wont see any used 330s,340s,744s, 767s etc. 
 

And those 717s are owned by Boeing Capital, not WN.

I believe ILFC owns some of them (or maybe Wells Fargo) 

 

[WorldTraveler]

can you give us a list and documentation of which planes were designed as TPAC aircraft and which were not.

here's what Airbus says about the 333:
"In operational terms, the increased takeoff weight A330-300 will be able to connect to the following new city pairs: London to Tokyo; Frankfurt to Cape Town; Beijing to Melbourne; Beijing to San Francisco; Kuala Lumpur to Paris; and Los Angeles to Dublin."

looks like they have designed and marketed the HGW 333 as capable of flying the Pacific.

A 767 could fly EWR-HKG too but DL decided that being able to carry some cargo was worth it but DL still said the cost of the flight relative to the revenue was still too high. same thing for ATL-DXB and LAX-SYD, both of which have been or could be done on 772ER aircraft.

since you haven't seen operating specs for the new 333, you can't compare what it can do to existing DL aircraft.

I'm just curious as to what the price of a used 772ER will go for but I'm betting it is less than 1/3 and perhaps 1/4 of the cost of a new 789 or 350.

and suddenly the M80s don't look quite so out of date or uneconomical.

If fuel prices stay low for several years, the money saved in buying the used 777s will drop a lot faster to DL's bottom line.

 

[topDawg]

can you give us a list and documentation of which planes were designed as TPAC aircraft and which were not.

Is that the game you want to play with me? You'll get that list right after I get your Delta v American dept. by dept staffing and cost break down that I am still waiting on. 
 

here's what Airbus says about the 333:
"In operational terms, the increased takeoff weight A330-300 will be able to connect to the following new city pairs: London to Tokyo; Frankfurt to Cape Town; Beijing to Melbourne; Beijing to San Francisco; Kuala Lumpur to Paris; and Los Angeles to Dublin."

I believe I said it will be able to do west cost to some mainline China. HKG, CAN, TPE are all out however. 
 

looks like they have designed and marketed the HGW 333 as capable of flying the Pacific. but it will be very, very limited in what it can do. 

FIFY
 

A 767 could fly EWR-HKG too but DL decided that being able to carry some cargo was worth it but DL still said the cost of the flight relative to the revenue was still too high. same thing for ATL-DXB and LAX-SYD, both of which have been or could be done on 772ER aircraft.

See this is how I know you don't know what your talking about. 
 
An airplane with a still-air range (and assumed with no cargo also) of 6,300nm can fly a 7000nm+ plus route? Care to explain exactly how that can be done?
 

since you haven't seen operating specs for the new 333, you can't compare what it can do to existing DL aircraft.

 
Oh so you can say that the 333 can do 80% of a 772ER flying, but I can't tell you that your wrong? So you have seen the operating specs of each aircraft? Well please, then by all means, post em. 
 
If not, quit with the double standard BS. 

 

[WorldTraveler]

funny how for years DL's route network WAS predominantly NRT focused - that's what they bought from NW - and yet the 333 can fly from every one of DL's US gateways except for ATL and perhaps JFK (it might even be able to do that route too).

the 333 is a TPAC airplane just as the 767 is. both are capable of doing at least some of the Pacific. The 772ER can also do SOME of the Pacific but not even all of it. Who are you to say that MSP-PVG is a sufficient enough route to be called a TPAC route because a 772ER can do it but yet a 772ER can't do ATL-BKK?

and as much as you don't want to admit it, the 333 will be part of DL's TPAC network because it is the lowest CASM widebody available. when you factor in its lower acquisition price compared to the 787 and 350, the 333 is a clear advantage that DL will have in the market that other carriers will not.

and lest you wonder why the DL-AF-KL is so profitable, you might want to consider the multiple 333 flights that operate across the Atlantic with a CASM that is lower than any other aircraft... and the 764 is next in line. the 333 and 764 form a large portion of DL's TATL flying.

the lesson for how well a low CASM aircraft can transform the market is not lost on DL as it restructures its TPAC network and refleets based on the revised network.