DFW runway incursion last weekend

[the cave]

the sad thing is our union president asked other presidents to quit using all goldjunk until the boys got their badges back, but as you know it one president said no. I guess he likes saving fuel for rp's future.....I say send his boys here and let them cross a few runways for a change!!!!

 

[Bob Owens]

I may be wrong: but, I'm told that the tug in question does not have an A&P Mechanic required for the cockpit left seat.

During the initial inbrief over introduction of the tug into service: several TWU Officers asked about the absence of challenge and response between a left seat and the tug.

The question was raised about RF info heard by two but misinterpreted; the response from the KERP/SERP babies was that there was no data to support runway incursions without a A&P mechanic in the left seat during towing operations.

If the operation in question actually occured with an A&P mechanic in the left seat; the answer is why the mechanic did not apply brakes to assist the tug in compliance with tower instructions.

If the operation in question actually occured without an A&P mechanic in the left seat: the answer is why AMR bought into a reduction in single point failure potentially endangering hundreds of lives and billions of dollars.

You're correct, there is nobody in the cockpit at all during Goldhoffer operations. The radio is in the tractor and there is no aircraft braking-the tractor does it all. Continental and Jet Bleu have had several serious mishaps with these types of operations, which are inherantly dangerous, especially in wet weather(I believe at least 1 fatality).

Imagine if tractor trailers were allowed on the highway with no rear brakes. We see how they jackknife WITH rear brakes. Here we have extremely heavy aircraft being towed with no brakeriders. Its a recipe for disaster. A few weeks back we had an incident where an aircraft hit the hangar doors because the Goldhoffer failed to stop. The DFW incident is not unique, Goldhoffers are not good at stopping aircraft, Aircraft are simply too heavy and even if the Goldhoffer could it would probably damage the nose gear which is not designed to slow the airplane, aircraft brake riders should be manditory.

 

[Kev3188]

Continental and Jet Bleu have had several serious mishaps with these types of operations, which are inherantly dangerous, especially in wet weather(I believe at least 1 fatality).

Bob,

Don't forget this one at NW...

 

[Bob Owens]

the sad thing is our union president asked other presidents to quit using all goldjunk until the boys got their badges back, but as you know it one president said no. I guess he likes saving fuel for rp's future.....I say send his boys here and let them cross a few runways for a change!!!!

Do you know which President refused to support you guys?

 

[furp]

Bob,

Don't forget this one at NW...

the company better not make the mechanics take the fall for their choice to buy the smaller goldhoffer or this is what will happen!!! :blink: :blink:
View attachment 7471

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob,

Don't forget this one at NW...

Thanks!

The fact is these machines are dangerous. We are supposed to tow these aircraft at normal taxi speeds, thats why they allow us to tow on the Taxiways. If we do not move at those speeds the Tower gets on our case, they expect us to be somewhere at a certain point in time after they give us instructions and give other callers instructions accordingly,however at those speeds if you have to brake in a turn you are almost guaranteed to jackknife because when the tractor senses a skid it disables everything-even the steering so you can not recover.

There should be a man in the cockpit, in communcation with the tractor, to apply aircraft braking in an emergency.

 

[AMFAMAN]

Thanks!

The fact is these machines are dangerous. We are supposed to tow these aircraft at normal taxi speeds, thats why they allow us to tow on the Taxiways. If we do not move at those speeds the Tower gets on our case, they expect us to be somewhere at a certain point in time after they give us instructions and give other callers instructions accordingly,however at those speeds if you have to brake in a turn you are almost guaranteed to jackknife because when the tractor senses a skid it disables everything-even the steering so you can not recover.

There should be a man in the cockpit, in communcation with the tractor, to apply aircraft braking in an emergency.

All these points have been raised along with the lack of lighting on the aircraft at night, to date management is not interested in the problems. At DFW, we also have to cross 2 active runways on each trip to and from the hangar, so you have no choice but to get the goldhofer up to top speed.

 

[PRINCESS KIDAGAKASH]

Maybe I'm just imagining things, but these GOLDHOFERS seem to be absolute maintenance "PIGS".
It seems like they are always on alift getting repaired or serviced. Are these GOLDHOFERS really saving that much money in fuel costs?

 

[eolesen]

They've been in use in Europe for at least 10 years -- why haven't there been similar issues there?

Having someone available to ride the brake would make sense. Certainly more sense than having two in the cab.

 

[AMFAMAN]

They've been in use in Europe for at least 10 years -- why haven't there been similar issues there?

Having someone available to ride the brake would make sense. Certainly more sense than having two in the cab.

The carriers using them in Europe bought the right tractor for the job. We bought the smallest tractor that is barely rated for a 777, but designed for a 757 or A320 size plane. This was pointed out before they bought the tractors but ignored. The person in the cockpit has been brought up for over a year now, but ignored. In other words, it's business as usual. <_<

 

[lpbrian]

Not to mention the towing distances at DFW are much greater than elsewhere. There is also the summer heat.

 

[lpbrian]

Maybe I'm just imagining things, but these GOLDHOFERS seem to be absolute maintenance "PIGS".
It seems like they are always on alift getting repaired or serviced. Are these GOLDHOFERS really saving that much money in fuel costs?

Yes they are maintenance intensive, that is why they have more than they need. A couple can always be expected to be out of service at any given time. If you have 4 that leaves 2 or so available.

 

[Bob Owens]

They've been in use in Europe for at least 10 years -- why haven't there been similar issues there?

Having someone available to ride the brake would make sense. Certainly more sense than having two in the cab.

How do you know there havent been? Maybe you just havent heard of any. The problem is not isolated to AA, Jet Blue has has several incidences with their barless tractors and so has Continental.

 

[eolesen]

How do you know there havent been? Maybe you just havent heard of any. The problem is not isolated to AA, Jet Blue has has several incidences with their barless tractors and so has Continental.

I don't know that there haven't been, Bob. That's why I asked the question... I sat next to the GSE manager in staff meetings for over five years, and never heard it discussed by Dewey or David when they were evaluating towbarless. I know they spent a lot of time at FRA and other airports in Europe evaluating the Krauss-Maffai as well as the FMC here in the States (didn't AA test out the FMC at DFW back in the MD11 days?...). Never heard of the Goldhofer until this thread...

 

[The Goose]

The carriers using them in Europe bought the right tractor for the job. We bought the smallest tractor that is barely rated for a 777, but designed for a 757 or A320 size plane. This was pointed out before they bought the tractors but ignored. The person in the cockpit has been brought up for over a year now, but ignored. In other words, it's business as usual. <_<

OK - maybe I've got the wrong outlook but ...

Relatively simple math tells me that a 200 ton aircraft moving at 15 mph has some serious kinetic energy behind it and will not think anything at all of running over any towing device with a weight of, say, 20-50 tons (even though I doubt these tractors in question weigh that much).

Kinda like the fools in the 4 wheel drive jacked-up trucks in an ice storm - they may well be able to get moving, but they can't stop any better than a Volkswagen.

Brilliant!