DFW runway incursion last weekend

[MCI transplant]

I may be wrong: but, I'm told that the tug in question does not have an A&P Mechanic required for the cockpit left seat.

During the initial inbrief over introduction of the tug into service: several TWU Officers asked about the absence of challenge and response between a left seat and the tug.

The question was raised about RF info heard by two but misinterpreted; the response from the KERP/SERP babies was that there was no data to support runway incursions without a A&P mechanic in the left seat during towing operations.

If the operation in question actually occured with an A&P mechanic in the left seat; the answer is why the mechanic did not apply brakes to assist the tug in compliance with tower instructions.

If the operation in question actually occured without an A&P mechanic in the left seat: the answer is why AMR bought into a reduction in single point failure potentially endangering hundreds of lives and billions of dollars.

Were they far too busy calculating their bonuses?

<_< -------This is plain "stupid!!" I come from a line background, (TWA) and towing 101! "Never move an Aircraft (ALL) without an AMT ridding the brakes, (Left Seat) and that person has to be in direct contact (head set) with the tow driver, and the tower (Aircraft Radio's)!!!Especially an Aircraft the size, and weight of an 777!!!! Anything less, and your inviting disaster!

 

[AMFAMAN]

OK - maybe I've got the wrong outlook but ...

Relatively simple math tells me that a 200 ton aircraft moving at 15 mph has some serious kinetic energy behind it and will not think anything at all of running over any towing device with a weight of, say, 20-50 tons (even though I doubt these tractors in question weigh that much).

Kinda like the fools in the 4 wheel drive jacked-up trucks in an ice storm - they may well be able to get moving, but they can't stop any better than a Volkswagen.

Brilliant!

Yeah, we've brought all this up way before the program got started. Here are the tractors, AA purchased the AST2 f 400:

http://www.goldhofer.de/english/produkte/a...ugschlepper.php

 

[FWAAA]

Landed at DFW last night and with my window seat (5A, a rarity for me), I noticed the hangars on the other side of the runways.

Ignoring for a moment the poor decision-making in not having anyone riding the brakes, isn't it generally a bad idea to have to cross runways, especially with towed vehicles?

Atlanta built an end-run at the end of a runway a few years ago and touted its contribution to improving safety. Wouldn't it improve safety considerably if DFW had similar taxiways at the ends of the runways? Not just for towed aircraft coming from the hangars, but also for landing aircraft?

 

[MCI transplant]

Landed at DFW last night and with my window seat (5A, a rarity for me), I noticed the hangars on the other side of the runways.

Ignoring for a moment the poor decision-making in not having anyone riding the brakes, isn't it generally a bad idea to have to cross runways, especially with towed vehicles?

Atlanta built an end-run at the end of a runway a few years ago and touted its contribution to improving safety. Wouldn't it improve safety considerably if DFW had similar taxiways at the ends of the runways? Not just for towed aircraft coming from the hangars, but also for landing aircraft?

<_< -------- Welcome to the real world FW! It's done every day, and at night, across the country! And if done "properly" it's safe enough. But yes, it would be nice not to have to worry about such things, but unfortunately we don't have that luxury!!!

 

[AMFAMAN]

Landed at DFW last night and with my window seat (5A, a rarity for me), I noticed the hangars on the other side of the runways.

Ignoring for a moment the poor decision-making in not having anyone riding the brakes, isn't it generally a bad idea to have to cross runways, especially with towed vehicles?

Atlanta built an end-run at the end of a runway a few years ago and touted its contribution to improving safety. Wouldn't it improve safety considerably if DFW had similar taxiways at the ends of the runways? Not just for towed aircraft coming from the hangars, but also for landing aircraft?

Real bad decision to cross 2 runway each way, which by the way was brought up from the beginning. It's not fun try to drag a 777 across a runway with a another plane on a 2 - 3 mile final. Funny you said ATL, because that was the airport which our management was using as an example for how great these tractors work. Of course it was pointed out and ignored several times that in ATL they do not have to cross runways. This incident was by no means the first one with this tractor. The common denominator with almost every incident has been the 777, which goes back to common sense regarding the size of the tractor versus the size of the airplane. But then again this is an airport, and common sense does not apply.
<_<

BTW...they are talking about putting taxiways around the end of the runways, but that will be years away.

 

[eolesen]

\Atlanta built an end-run at the end of a runway a few years ago and touted its contribution to improving safety. Wouldn't it improve safety considerably if DFW had similar taxiways at the ends of the runways? Not just for towed aircraft coming from the hangars, but also for landing aircraft?

That's been in the master plan for DFW about five years or so. Getting the funding for it is another story...

 

[The Goose]

<_< -------This is plain "stupid!!" I come from a line background, (TWA) and towing 101! "Never move an Aircraft (ALL) without an AMT ridding the brakes, (Left Seat) and that person has to be in direct contact (head set) with the tow driver, and the tower (Aircraft Radio's)!!!Especially an Aircraft the size, and weight of an 777!!!! Anything less, and your inviting disaster!

Agreed - the aircraft is either chocked and brakes locked or a left-seat rider is present to run the brakes. No exceptions!

The Navy uses a miniature version of these things (spotting dollies). Now I'll grant you a carrier doesn't have 777s on the roof, but 80 - 100k lbs. (fully armed) ain't exactly light either. They don't seem to have problems like this and the dollies are used with fixed wing and helos, so, ??? .

Is it as simple as the size being better suited for the job or ??? ...

 

[furp]

That's been in the master plan for DFW about five years or so. Getting the funding for it is another story...

Already in the works at DFW
www.dfwairport.com/perimetertaxiways/

 

[midnights]

Already in the works at DFW
www.dfwairport.com/perimetertaxiways/

We were shown the plans and told the funding was in place just before 9-11...then everything was put on hold...I don't know if there is still funding but all those gas wells going up around the airport should provide some money for a project like this. It's not like the airport is spending it on the leaking sewer lines above our breakrooms/lockerrooms/computerrooms or on better bus service to/from the employee lot or any other of the dozen or so issues we have brought to our management/union/airprort board time and time again. I mean after all, we just work here.

 

[AMFAMAN]

Not confirmed yet, but word has it that the FAA has stopped allowing the use of Goldhofers outside of ramp area at all airports, and all airlines due to the many incidents.

 

[PRINCESS KIDAGAKASH]

I've heard that the AOA badges of the two employees involved have been taken from them by DFW authorities. I also noticed three of the Goldhofers were over at the "junkyard" area by hangar 4. Something about a "boycott" until these guys get their AOA badges back.

 

[AMFAMAN]

Well more press on this incident, this time a special report from nbc in Dallas. The video is not uploaded yet, but here is the story.

http://www.nbc5i.com/travelgetaways/162676...ml?dl=mainclick

DALLAS -- Some air traffic controllers say they believe American Airlines is attempting to save fuel at the expense of safety, and risking the possibility of a runway collision, NBC 5 reported.

The concerns stem from a near miss on a runway at Dallas-Fort Worth International Airport in early April that is under investigation by the Federal Aviation Administration.

It happened as American Airlines mechanics were towing a Boeing 777 to a maintenance hangar using a high-speed tug. Air traffic controllers told the mechanics to stop short of a runway, but they did not stop in time and pulled the jumbo jet into the path of another plane coming in for landing, NBC 5 reported.

The pilot pulled up narrowly and avoided a collision, said Ric Loewen of The National Air Traffic Controllers Association.

"It was extremely close. I've heard reports of anything from 9 feet to 25 feet apart and either way that's too close for two planes to be under those circumstances," Loewen said.

If the incident had happened at night controllers said the pilot may not have seen the other plane until it was too late. That is because at night American Airlines had been towing planes across runways without turning on any of the plane's lights that are designed to avoid a collision, NBC 5 reported.

"So essentially it's just a big black hole out there at night -- we can't see them -- you have to remember where they are," Loewen said.

Running the lights would burn fuel and when American Airlines bought the high-speed tugs last year the goal was saving fuel by moving planes without turning on the engines or the generator that power the lights, NBC 5 reported.

The Allied Pilots Association, the union that represents the Airline's pilots, questioned the decision.

"This is certainly an area where we shouldn't be taking shortcuts," said Scott Shankland of the Allied Pilots Association. "All the money you save in shortcutting procedures will be wiped out if you have an incident."

The pilots union said moving planes in the dark without lights appears to be a violation of FAA regulations. American Airlines and the FAA had not responded to NBC 5's questions about that issue.

"These big planes can be hard to see at night and that could pose a problem," said DFW airport spokesman Ken Capps.

NBC 5 also learned that officials at DFW Airport sent a letter to American Airlines in March asking the airline to get the planes lit. An airport official wrote: "While we have had many meetings and e-mail discussions on this item since last fall -- we have not had any substantial progress in meeting this goal."

American Airlines declined an on-camera interview, but released a statement saying: "American is working with the DFW airport and the FAA to ensure that the tug and aircraft being towed are visible at night. How we will accomplish that is being discussed."

After the near miss incident in April, DFW Airport officials ordered American Airlines to park the tugs while the FAA investigates. The airline is still using the tugs to pull planes at airports in Los Angeles, New York, San Francisco and Miami.

"I'd like to see the aircraft lit. I want to be able to see it," Loewen said. "That's how I do my job."

 

[FWAAA]

Towing dark airplanes at night? Without running the lights? That's just freakin' stupid. Not only should the nav lights be on, the cabin lights should be bright and window shades should be up, too. Airplanes need to be visible. Too bad AA figured out that the vertical stab lights were too costly to maintain - those would be helpful, too.

Airplanes aren't allowed to taxi without lights - so on what basis can you tow a dark airplane?

 

[ch53D]

Towing dark airplanes at night? Without running the lights? That's just freakin' stupid. Not only should the nav lights be on, the cabin lights should be bright and window shades should be up, too. Airplanes need to be visible. Too bad AA figured out that the vertical stab lights were too costly to maintain - those would be helpful, too.

Airplanes aren't allowed to taxi without lights - so on what basis can you tow a dark airplane?

That has been are point since day one.

 

[the cave]

Did anyone see the end of the video where the newsman said " American has investigated the incident and has blamed it on operator error " are these guys screwed. I take it they haven't got their badges back???
All other goldhoffer stations should unite and put 4sale by owner signs on them !!!!