MCI transplant
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DL mentioned as possible UA merger partner.
- Thread starter artiefufkin1
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WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
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All of this fascination with mergers is pure fantasy.
There are at least a half dozen stories that were written yesterday countering Tilton’s assertion that consolidation WILL happen.
I’m not beating on UA, but remember that Tilton has said this for years – his entire tenure at UA. All of this merger talk is driven by his desire to cash out of UA and the growing recognition that UA was not completely restructuring during BK and now faces major hurdles. Tilton personally wants to cash out and I believe the banks are tapping him on the shoulder and telling him that if he can’t turn it around, he needs to cut their losses.
If you look at my thread on DOT stats, you will see that UA is not dramatically failing in any region. It’s just turning in a mediocre performance which is driven by costs that are too high. UA still has good revenue and a good network. What is a shame is that UA employees make so little relative to other airline employees and yet UA still doesn’t report much bigger profits.
People got real excited about US/HP but it was a rare occurrence. There are few airlines that get to the point of failing – which is where US was and the reason why Parker was able to step in. No other carrier is failing or will fail as US did. I don’t know what you are thinking, OH captain ron but DL reported the 3rd best operating profit per ASM behind NW and US… DL is hardly failing. And please tell me you don’t fly for Comair because if you do, you sure manage to spout off an aweful lot of stuff that a captain even for a regional airline should be better versed at.
Fly,
Are you saying you would rather merge with DL than CO? I almost fell out of my chair. Please tell me you haven’t changed your mind.
The fact that CO has just acknowledged the golden share held by NW will affect consolidation does kinda squash the rumors of a CO-UA merger, doesn’t it? You might also note that CO and UA might create a very strong international route system but neither carrier is doing particularly good in the good ole USA so what you’d end up with by merging the two is – PAN AM!
There are at least a half dozen stories that were written yesterday countering Tilton’s assertion that consolidation WILL happen.
I’m not beating on UA, but remember that Tilton has said this for years – his entire tenure at UA. All of this merger talk is driven by his desire to cash out of UA and the growing recognition that UA was not completely restructuring during BK and now faces major hurdles. Tilton personally wants to cash out and I believe the banks are tapping him on the shoulder and telling him that if he can’t turn it around, he needs to cut their losses.
If you look at my thread on DOT stats, you will see that UA is not dramatically failing in any region. It’s just turning in a mediocre performance which is driven by costs that are too high. UA still has good revenue and a good network. What is a shame is that UA employees make so little relative to other airline employees and yet UA still doesn’t report much bigger profits.
People got real excited about US/HP but it was a rare occurrence. There are few airlines that get to the point of failing – which is where US was and the reason why Parker was able to step in. No other carrier is failing or will fail as US did. I don’t know what you are thinking, OH captain ron but DL reported the 3rd best operating profit per ASM behind NW and US… DL is hardly failing. And please tell me you don’t fly for Comair because if you do, you sure manage to spout off an aweful lot of stuff that a captain even for a regional airline should be better versed at.
Fly,
Are you saying you would rather merge with DL than CO? I almost fell out of my chair. Please tell me you haven’t changed your mind.
The fact that CO has just acknowledged the golden share held by NW will affect consolidation does kinda squash the rumors of a CO-UA merger, doesn’t it? You might also note that CO and UA might create a very strong international route system but neither carrier is doing particularly good in the good ole USA so what you’d end up with by merging the two is – PAN AM!
No, I always knew about the 'golden share'....didn't you? I always believed, and have stated on numerous occasions, that if the people backing a merger want to buy NW out, it would be pretty simple to do.
OMG, World, haven't we already told you that DL is one of the worst paid. Where do you keep coming up with this stuff? Too bad if we merge with DL though, I'll probably have to take another paycut to match theirs but something tells me that this may be exactly where we are headed. The reason it's a good merger for me is that they have NO union protection so I'll probably end up in a better position, seniority whys. Besides, I have a LOT of miles on them and am a member of the Crown Room. All better for me in that regard.
Just think WT, if we merge with DL, I could end up being your f/a one of these days. That's a scary thought.
OMG, World, haven't we already told you that DL is one of the worst paid. Where do you keep coming up with this stuff? Too bad if we merge with DL though, I'll probably have to take another paycut to match theirs but something tells me that this may be exactly where we are headed. The reason it's a good merger for me is that they have NO union protection so I'll probably end up in a better position, seniority whys. Besides, I have a LOT of miles on them and am a member of the Crown Room. All better for me in that regard.
Just think WT, if we merge with DL, I could end up being your f/a one of these days. That's a scary thought.
You're mistaken about open skies; USA-Australia is open skies for solely for cargo-only flights, not for combination (passenger) service. Teaming up with QF for USA-Australia makes much more sense for AA than flying there on its own metal.
Here's the official list of open skies treaties:
http://www.state.gov/e/eb/rls/othr/2006/22281.htm
- Thread Starter
- #21
Well UA hiring Goldman Sachs is a sure sign they are serious about a merger. So CO is off the list. That leaves DL has number #1 choice IMHO. Chapter 11 makes it easier to pull off.
Now I have no idea how much DL would be receptive to this and my guess would be the odds are against it but it does create a well balanced airline. Asia-Europe, East Coast-West Coast. And a large presence in all the premier US markets, NYC/LAX/SFO/WAS/CHI.
Now I have no idea how much DL would be receptive to this and my guess would be the odds are against it but it does create a well balanced airline. Asia-Europe, East Coast-West Coast. And a large presence in all the premier US markets, NYC/LAX/SFO/WAS/CHI.
Worldtraveler said,
" OH captain ron but DL reported the 3rd best operating profit per ASM behind NW and US… DL is hardly failing. And please tell me you don’t fly for Comair because if you do, you sure manage to spout off an aweful lot of stuff that a captain even for a regional airline should be better versed at. "
World, I was not saying DL is not running a good business, on the contrary, they are.
My point was simply that by being in BK the DOJ has always maintained that said carrier meets their definition of a "failed carrier". A distinction they make
when determinning anti-trust issues.
As far as the personal attack, NICE TIE. I do not work for your company Comair.
" OH captain ron but DL reported the 3rd best operating profit per ASM behind NW and US… DL is hardly failing. And please tell me you don’t fly for Comair because if you do, you sure manage to spout off an aweful lot of stuff that a captain even for a regional airline should be better versed at. "
World, I was not saying DL is not running a good business, on the contrary, they are.
My point was simply that by being in BK the DOJ has always maintained that said carrier meets their definition of a "failed carrier". A distinction they make
when determinning anti-trust issues.
As far as the personal attack, NICE TIE. I do not work for your company Comair.
Captain, WorldTraveler may not have gotten your point (that DL's CH 11 stint would greatly streamline the DOJ's antitrust review of any potential DL merger/combination), but I certainly did - and I'm guessing nearly everyone else did as well. Apparently the "failing company" reference is Greek to WT.
I find it truly hilarious when someone misinterprets a post like yours and then goes on such a defensive tirade ("Delta is nowhere near failing").
In weight? :unsure: Yes, I've seen some mighty LARGE southern gals, but don't you worry your pretty lil' head about it. A lot of the UAL girls are in the Large Marge Society too.
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
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I’m questioning where anyone got the idea that an airline in bankruptcy is considered failing. How about a source – something like a quote from a DOT official…. Given that every network airline in the US has filed for BK except for AA, the whole industry should be merged into one carrier by your logic.
Sorry if the attack seemed personal… your statement seemed way out of line for someone who even remotely knows the industry.
You might remember that in the aftermath of the ATSB’s decision to reject UAL’s loan request, the US Congress published a study saying that bankruptcy was the best course of action US legacy carries should use to become cost competitive. Everyone except AA took their advice and, guess what the cost difference between LFCs and the legacy sector as a whole is now in the low teens of percents.
There is no US airline that is in any failing condition. It is not a defense of DL. It as an assertion of the reality of the industry.
DL has stated multiple times that it has no intention of merging with another carrier at this time. Emerging as an independent airline provides the greatest recovery potential for DL’s creditors and DL management’s first obligation right now is to them. DL, like every other company in bankruptcy has the right to develop its own plan of reorganization. Given DL’s strong financial performance there is no likelihood that someone else could assert that a plan should be implemented which takes away DL’s independence.
I am aware of the golden share and have written about it before. There seems to be some question about how it would work if CO was the acquiring company. Kellner's comments this week indicates that even in that case it might kick in. I haven't mentioned it because golden shares don't mean anything if the basic financial fundamentals aren't working and right now neither CO or UA are at the top of the game; forcing a merger now would be questionable from a financing standpoint.
DL could – and I believe likely – will be involved in further UA asset acquisitions in the future. Like several years from now future – a period which for the airline industry is tantamount to one step short of eternity.
Fly,
I am so thrilled that you’re willing even to mention the possibility of flying for DL. You would be a huge asset at DL. You’ll have plenty of time to get used to it. Besides, your commute would be so much shorter. And the int’l trips from ATL will make your mouth water. <_<
There are plenty of non-southern DL flight attendants and I personally prefer those that are professional without the southern syrup stuff. I’ve never mistaken a former Pan Am or Western flight attendant for a DL southern belle. DL’s “homegrown†flight attendants from the NE or the west are distinctly their own “bird.†And DL has more and more foreign-born flight attendants who add a unique perspective to the airline.
Sorry if the attack seemed personal… your statement seemed way out of line for someone who even remotely knows the industry.
You might remember that in the aftermath of the ATSB’s decision to reject UAL’s loan request, the US Congress published a study saying that bankruptcy was the best course of action US legacy carries should use to become cost competitive. Everyone except AA took their advice and, guess what the cost difference between LFCs and the legacy sector as a whole is now in the low teens of percents.
There is no US airline that is in any failing condition. It is not a defense of DL. It as an assertion of the reality of the industry.
DL has stated multiple times that it has no intention of merging with another carrier at this time. Emerging as an independent airline provides the greatest recovery potential for DL’s creditors and DL management’s first obligation right now is to them. DL, like every other company in bankruptcy has the right to develop its own plan of reorganization. Given DL’s strong financial performance there is no likelihood that someone else could assert that a plan should be implemented which takes away DL’s independence.
I am aware of the golden share and have written about it before. There seems to be some question about how it would work if CO was the acquiring company. Kellner's comments this week indicates that even in that case it might kick in. I haven't mentioned it because golden shares don't mean anything if the basic financial fundamentals aren't working and right now neither CO or UA are at the top of the game; forcing a merger now would be questionable from a financing standpoint.
DL could – and I believe likely – will be involved in further UA asset acquisitions in the future. Like several years from now future – a period which for the airline industry is tantamount to one step short of eternity.
Fly,
I am so thrilled that you’re willing even to mention the possibility of flying for DL. You would be a huge asset at DL. You’ll have plenty of time to get used to it. Besides, your commute would be so much shorter. And the int’l trips from ATL will make your mouth water. <_<
There are plenty of non-southern DL flight attendants and I personally prefer those that are professional without the southern syrup stuff. I’ve never mistaken a former Pan Am or Western flight attendant for a DL southern belle. DL’s “homegrown†flight attendants from the NE or the west are distinctly their own “bird.†And DL has more and more foreign-born flight attendants who add a unique perspective to the airline.
WT, I usually enjoy your posts - but your Emily Litella episode here is just too pathetic. Captain Ron was talking about an antitrust doctrine - the failing company defense - that generally excuses an in-depth antitrust review of potential mergers and combinations that might (were one or both companies not in bankruptcy) violate Section 2 of the Sherman Act. He wasn't asserting one way or another that Delta was "failing" or in any danger of failing.
What makes this post (a portion of which I quoted above) so comical is that instead of admitting your Emily Litella moment and having a healthy laugh at yourself, you just keep spinning and spinning (if I didn't know better, I'd suspect you were a flyboy who pilots A320s at an airline that recently merged with another airline).
Some of us own up to our Emily Litella moments and some of us don't.
When you don't - you get sidetracked down a goofy tangent instead of addressing the topic - which is whether DL might merge with UA.
I'd hesitate to draw too many conclusions about each carrier's relative financial health from reading one quarter's worth of DOT filing stats. Hell, I'd probably not rely on three years' worth, but that's just me.
Unfortunately, I agree with my sparring partner on this point.
Really? Being in BK is "hardly" failing? Not even a l'il teeny-weeny-tiny bit?
My but how your song has changed since UA was in bankruptcy! Quite an amazing transformation.
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MCI,
Great question !!
AS is at times, "an easy read", then again, Impossible "to read" !!
For SURE, AS has it ALL(Alaska) to themselves !!
Alaska(believe it or not) is growing, plus AS has a monopoly on hauling a LOT of A/F around the state.
Virtually every legacy code shares with AS.
Given NW's "DNA", they'd be the natural airline to acquire AS(Not to mention the HUGE cargo operation, that BIG RED has going in ANC).....Where the "difficulty" comes in with NW, is that they are so GOD DAM* "QUIRKY"/Independent, that It's not in their nature to "associate" with others !!
(NW, is kinda like the AMISH people)
Also related to this topic, is the rare fact, that NW DOES have a "relationship" with another carrier....CO"
What "this" will all mean...I don't know(yet).
NH/BB's
MCI transplant
Veteran
- Jun 4, 2003
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<_< ----Bear, It's not like you to dance around the barn and just end up with a "I don't know!"---- And I wouldn't berate the Amish! I've got too much respect for them to try and compare them to Northworst!!!!
And I wouldn't berate the Amish! I've got too much respect for them to try and compare them to Northworst!!!!
