Kev3188
Veteran
eolesen said:
Hey, why not? The subfleet tent's a big one here at the Widget. Plenty of room to add another to the list...
DL rumored to acquire used A340-600s
- Thread starter WorldTraveler
- Start date
- Status
Hey, why not? The subfleet tent's a big one here at the Widget. Plenty of room to add another to the list...
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2003
- Messages
- 21,709
- Reaction score
- 10,662
best reason yet, Kev.
wanna bet that NW would have taken A340s if the price had been this cheap or at least what is rumored?
wanna bet that NW would have taken A340s if the price had been this cheap or at least what is rumored?
Kev3188
Veteran
No.
BTW, who (or what) is the "unnamed source" you've based this thread on?
BTW, who (or what) is the "unnamed source" you've based this thread on?
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2003
- Messages
- 21,709
- Reaction score
- 10,662
if I intended to give a name or source, why do you think I called it "unnamed?"
I'm not staking anything on whether this is true or not - that is why I titled the thread "rumor."
The transaction does fit DL's MO and it has been well established there is no market for used 340s.
The numbers do work if the aircraft is basically given away.
I'm not staking anything on whether this is true or not - that is why I titled the thread "rumor."
The transaction does fit DL's MO and it has been well established there is no market for used 340s.
The numbers do work if the aircraft is basically given away.
Kev3188
Veteran
Meh. Whatever.
A link or other source would go a long way is all I'm sayin'...
A link or other source would go a long way is all I'm sayin'...
Airlinelifer
Senior
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2008
- Messages
- 333
- Reaction score
- 142
"Possibly" purchasing relatively young wide body aircraft being sold at a MAJOR discount.
Airbus & RR offering discounted support.
Corporate taking an alternate view of the RFP as it relates to the 747-400 replacement
The CLT at DAL is all about the ROI (and CapEx).
With this team, you just never know.
Airbus & RR offering discounted support.
Corporate taking an alternate view of the RFP as it relates to the 747-400 replacement
The CLT at DAL is all about the ROI (and CapEx).
With this team, you just never know.
AdAstraPerAspera
Veteran
WorldTraveler said:
NW did order A340s, you doof. It wasn't until later the order was converted to A330s
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2003
- Messages
- 21,709
- Reaction score
- 10,662
first, go back and see who asked a question and who answered it.
second, the price and overall economics weren't right or NW would have taken delivery and operated the 340 but they did not. DL and other carriers ordered super-sonic aircraft but never took delivery of them.
note also how "experimental" the 330/340 was at the time NW ordered it - and historians will also remember how badly Airbus was trying to establish itself as a credible player in the US.
third, the 340 has been a known entity to both DL and NW for years. Airbus has made multiple presentations to DL and NW regarding the 330/340 family. The economics of the 330 won out both for NW as well as DL with its 330s that are on order. But it doesn't change the price of the aircraft has dropped dramatically and the aircraft is not that uneconomical that it can't work with enough price support from Boeing and Rolls Royce which is apparently happening. We all know from today's perspective that the 340 doesn't work but LH has been one of the most profitable airlines and has operated scores of various versions of the 340. LH likely actually paid for the aircraft.
fourth, we have no idea how close DL might have been leaning to a 773ER order; if that was the case and this keeps DL from ordering them, it is a victory for Airbus in addition to keeping the 340 flying for a few more years.
fifth, it is interesting to consider how NW and the industry might have changed if NW had taken the 340 as originally ordered. NW has long been handicapped by not having a long haul aircraft smaller than the 747. NW was constantly forced to start a route with 747s or not serve it at all. If NW had the 340 or even the M11, they could have operated routes from DTW deeper into Asia which DL has started and sustained with the 777 or from SEA which DL has started with either the 767 or 332. AA and DL both operated the M11, found out quickly it was not an economical aircraft but it provided opportunities to expand on the Pacific that both took advantage of at the time even if their Pacific plans were altered because of market forces.
sixth, DL reiterated on its earnings conference call its commitment to reforming the US import-export bank and said that it is precisely because of its ownership stake in AM, G3, and VS that it now has much greater understanding of the discounts that are being offered because of the bank. A and B both have to recognize that DL is a potentially large enough customer that they have to either be willing to offer something to overcome the discounts other airlines are getting or be willing to not see new aircraft orders from DL for years to come.
There are and will be enough decent used aircraft on the market that DL could keep up this same strategy of being used for a long enough time to affect the way A and B do business.
If this deal does become reality, it provides DL with opportunities to fairly rapidly grow its int'l network at minimal upfront cost and then make a decision regarding a more modern and economical aircraft when Boeing and Airbus both have proven both of those aircraft and when both airframers also will have received all of the big orders from the world's largest airlines and will be willing to price aggressively.
even if the 346 deal doesn't turn out to be true, DL has been aggressively looking at used aircraft options including from EK who has plenty of "gently used" current generation widebodies becoming available in the near future.
second, the price and overall economics weren't right or NW would have taken delivery and operated the 340 but they did not. DL and other carriers ordered super-sonic aircraft but never took delivery of them.
note also how "experimental" the 330/340 was at the time NW ordered it - and historians will also remember how badly Airbus was trying to establish itself as a credible player in the US.
third, the 340 has been a known entity to both DL and NW for years. Airbus has made multiple presentations to DL and NW regarding the 330/340 family. The economics of the 330 won out both for NW as well as DL with its 330s that are on order. But it doesn't change the price of the aircraft has dropped dramatically and the aircraft is not that uneconomical that it can't work with enough price support from Boeing and Rolls Royce which is apparently happening. We all know from today's perspective that the 340 doesn't work but LH has been one of the most profitable airlines and has operated scores of various versions of the 340. LH likely actually paid for the aircraft.
fourth, we have no idea how close DL might have been leaning to a 773ER order; if that was the case and this keeps DL from ordering them, it is a victory for Airbus in addition to keeping the 340 flying for a few more years.
fifth, it is interesting to consider how NW and the industry might have changed if NW had taken the 340 as originally ordered. NW has long been handicapped by not having a long haul aircraft smaller than the 747. NW was constantly forced to start a route with 747s or not serve it at all. If NW had the 340 or even the M11, they could have operated routes from DTW deeper into Asia which DL has started and sustained with the 777 or from SEA which DL has started with either the 767 or 332. AA and DL both operated the M11, found out quickly it was not an economical aircraft but it provided opportunities to expand on the Pacific that both took advantage of at the time even if their Pacific plans were altered because of market forces.
sixth, DL reiterated on its earnings conference call its commitment to reforming the US import-export bank and said that it is precisely because of its ownership stake in AM, G3, and VS that it now has much greater understanding of the discounts that are being offered because of the bank. A and B both have to recognize that DL is a potentially large enough customer that they have to either be willing to offer something to overcome the discounts other airlines are getting or be willing to not see new aircraft orders from DL for years to come.
There are and will be enough decent used aircraft on the market that DL could keep up this same strategy of being used for a long enough time to affect the way A and B do business.
If this deal does become reality, it provides DL with opportunities to fairly rapidly grow its int'l network at minimal upfront cost and then make a decision regarding a more modern and economical aircraft when Boeing and Airbus both have proven both of those aircraft and when both airframers also will have received all of the big orders from the world's largest airlines and will be willing to price aggressively.
even if the 346 deal doesn't turn out to be true, DL has been aggressively looking at used aircraft options including from EK who has plenty of "gently used" current generation widebodies becoming available in the near future.
Kev3188
Veteran
That's a long way to go to avoid saying that you either didn't know or didn't remember NW had the A340 on the books. I'd certainly forgotten until Ad mentioned it...
Next time you're at the G.O., stop by Anderson's office and ask him about it. He made great hay about how anything larger than an A330 (specifically the 777) was "too much" airplane for NW...
Next time you're at the G.O., stop by Anderson's office and ask him about it. He made great hay about how anything larger than an A330 (specifically the 777) was "too much" airplane for NW...
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2003
- Messages
- 21,709
- Reaction score
- 10,662
again, the question was regarding whether NW would have acquired the 340 if the price/economics had been right. My question and your answer were both accurate answers to that question.
and I suspect that Anderson might well admit that NW missed the opportunity on several occasions to acquire a long range medium sized widebody.
They had the same opportunity with the 777 but passed on it. The NRT hub worked for NW for years but NW was handicapped in its ability to grow in Asia outside of NRT because they didn't have aircraft that could economically or operationally open new routes.
Yes, Josh, NW had great hopes for the 787 and for doing exactly what DL is now doing with the 777s from DTW. It isn't a surprise that DL moved aggressively to act on plans which NW likely already had... and those plans have worked.
NW just didn't have the right aircraft. having the right aircraft available at the right time is essential to be able to maximize revenue opportunities.
BTW, here is an article comparing the 773ER to the 346. Price of fuel is highly dated but fuel usage is still valid. They say that the increased fuel burn is between 17-21% for the 346 but the 346 also has higher usable cargo capacity on similar length flights.
http://www.aircraft-commerce.com/sample_articles/sample_articles/flight_operations_sample.pdf
Based on 14-16 hours of flying per frame per day at current jet fuel prices, the additional fuel costs are in line with the difference in acquisition costs that have been suggested.
Those who suggest that fuel could soar need only consider that if fuel prices soar, a lot of routes flown by current generation aircraft also become uneconomical. The 346 is cheap incremental capacity that can be quickly parked with little cost. It's the same philosophy DL uses with the M90s as well as keeping the M80s in the fleet; the difference in fuel efficiency is far greater between the M80 and M90/320/738 than it is between the 346 and 773.
one other consideration in this deal is that the pilots want resolution to DL's handling of 117 rules. DALPA believes DL is overstepping the contract in order to meet 117 requirements. The pilots also say that DL is out of compliance with DL's portion of flying with the the AF-KL-AZ JV. Throwing a half dozen or more widebody aircraft can easily help DALPA look past some of those issues.
and I suspect that Anderson might well admit that NW missed the opportunity on several occasions to acquire a long range medium sized widebody.
They had the same opportunity with the 777 but passed on it. The NRT hub worked for NW for years but NW was handicapped in its ability to grow in Asia outside of NRT because they didn't have aircraft that could economically or operationally open new routes.
Yes, Josh, NW had great hopes for the 787 and for doing exactly what DL is now doing with the 777s from DTW. It isn't a surprise that DL moved aggressively to act on plans which NW likely already had... and those plans have worked.
NW just didn't have the right aircraft. having the right aircraft available at the right time is essential to be able to maximize revenue opportunities.
BTW, here is an article comparing the 773ER to the 346. Price of fuel is highly dated but fuel usage is still valid. They say that the increased fuel burn is between 17-21% for the 346 but the 346 also has higher usable cargo capacity on similar length flights.
http://www.aircraft-commerce.com/sample_articles/sample_articles/flight_operations_sample.pdf
Based on 14-16 hours of flying per frame per day at current jet fuel prices, the additional fuel costs are in line with the difference in acquisition costs that have been suggested.
Those who suggest that fuel could soar need only consider that if fuel prices soar, a lot of routes flown by current generation aircraft also become uneconomical. The 346 is cheap incremental capacity that can be quickly parked with little cost. It's the same philosophy DL uses with the M90s as well as keeping the M80s in the fleet; the difference in fuel efficiency is far greater between the M80 and M90/320/738 than it is between the 346 and 773.
one other consideration in this deal is that the pilots want resolution to DL's handling of 117 rules. DALPA believes DL is overstepping the contract in order to meet 117 requirements. The pilots also say that DL is out of compliance with DL's portion of flying with the the AF-KL-AZ JV. Throwing a half dozen or more widebody aircraft can easily help DALPA look past some of those issues.
Kev3188
Veteran
737823 said:
Might've been too early for the 787 to have been mentioned, but MEM-NRT was discussed quite a bit. The fact that MEM was doing runway expansion/improvement work at the same time ('98-'99ish is what I'm thinking of)) certainly fueled that fire as well...
metopower
Veteran
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2006
- Messages
- 932
- Reaction score
- 313
Boeing and Airbus along with every leasing company on the planet offer aircraft deals to the airlines everyday. A340-600 is a beautiful airplane but the mission for it just is not there anymore. Even the economy of nonstop atl-jnb is not there. A stop in DKR would probably double the cargo on that route. That would be a lot of money.
P.s. According to R.A. The 777-300ER is now in question as a follow on to the 747. Economies of the 787-9/10 and the A350 are making them more viable. But....it is all in the deal. R.A. Is a very good pocket player.
P.s. According to R.A. The 777-300ER is now in question as a follow on to the 747. Economies of the 787-9/10 and the A350 are making them more viable. But....it is all in the deal. R.A. Is a very good pocket player.
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2003
- Messages
- 21,709
- Reaction score
- 10,662
thanks for weighin in, meto. But the numbers that are being tossed around are that Airbus is practically giving the aircraft to DL and Rolls-Royce is also offering something way beyond what any other aircraft deal would involve.
The fact that VS has 19 340-600s being replaced which have absolutely nowhere to go probably has alot to do with how badly Airbus and Rolls are willing to offer any discount, esp. if there is any time it to DL's RFP that is out there.
I think most people recognize that the 77L is the aircraft DL will use for JNB. There are other 77L routes such as to SYD or DXB or most of the DTW-Asia 77E flying that potentially could work with the 346 and allow the 777s to be redeployed.
and again this is just a rumor... but DL recognizes they need aircraft and these are cheap and readily available.
The fact that VS has 19 340-600s being replaced which have absolutely nowhere to go probably has alot to do with how badly Airbus and Rolls are willing to offer any discount, esp. if there is any time it to DL's RFP that is out there.
I think most people recognize that the 77L is the aircraft DL will use for JNB. There are other 77L routes such as to SYD or DXB or most of the DTW-Asia 77E flying that potentially could work with the 346 and allow the 777s to be redeployed.
and again this is just a rumor... but DL recognizes they need aircraft and these are cheap and readily available.
- Status
