Dumb question about Express flights

[redheadtempe33]

I am fairly new and have a dumb question. Why does US Airways (or any airline for that matter) outsource short flights? Are they not as profitable? Do large airlines not want to deal with the maintenance of smaller (and more) aircraft? I am curious ...

 

[Poug Darker]

Short Flights? PHL-MEM, CLT-MSP, DCA-DFW...the list goes on. According to the last quarterly statement, LCC paid more money out for 'express' operations than they took in from same. Sounds pretty stupid to run express when its losing you money, BUT... on the other hand, the 'express' carriers just donated to the cause of keeping the mothership afloat, amounting to a tribute that extends their contracts till about 015. The other point to consider is that LCC has no real access to additional aircraft to replace express jets, and if the contracts were terminated, those airframes would certainly feed the competition.
Sort of stuck with 'em, but don't have to like 'em.

 

[jimntx]

The advent of the "commuter"/regional airlines came about because the smaller a/c with lower paid staff gave air service to smaller cities that would have never had it otherwise. When I was growing up in the 50's and 60's, cities with less than 250,000 people did not have air service other than private planes at small local airstrips. And, cities with less than a million people didn't have much. In Birmingham, AL where i grew up, we used to say "I don't know where I'm going when I die, but I know I will have to go through Atlanta to get there."

Those smaller a/c with the lower paid staff (lower paid staff being the operative phrase) began to appeal to airline executives wishing to "maximize shareholder value"--aka, getting bigger executive bonusses. Now, at AA/AE we have a regional jet flight from NW Arkansas to Los Angeles. That is NOT a short flight. I don't know if we still have it, but we did have an American Eagle regional from DFW to the Bermuda Islands!

The airlines have moved as much flying as they possibly can to the regional division or partners because they can still charge the same for tickets from point A to point B at a lower cost to them. Or, so they say. This does not, however, factor in additional flying time for the passenger and a generally lower dependability record for the regionals.

 

[NCFL]

I'm always going to stand up for Express - y'all know that.

1. Everyone always loves to dog Express, but I don't think Mainline wouldn't exist without it. Where are we going to get all of the customers to fill all of those big jets without Express hauling them in from the AVLs, EWNs and YUMs of the world?

1a. I want to dispell a myth here: People frequently say Express agents (I'm talking Piedmont where they do ground handling) are inexperienced, clueless, rude, etc. Before I left US/EN, I used to manage complaints for the Express network. The fact is, in CLT and PHL, the complaint rate for Express was better than it was for Mainline! And this wasn't a one-time deal, either. This was sustained over the course of more than a year. Now Mesa in PHX was a whole different story. Not so much with them.

2. Express has a lower payscale, lower operating expenses, etc. and therefore has a lower CASM than Mainline. That makes it possible to operate into piddly places like AVL, EWN and YUM that wouldn't otherwise be able to economically support a full-sized jet.

3. I do not like the fact that US has Express flying some ridiculously long routes. I recall having to get creative to get home from PHX once and I ended up on CR9s all the way. I think it was PHX-MCI-CLT.

 

[Dog Wonder]

1. Everyone always loves to dog Express, but I don't think Mainline wouldn't exist without it.

There are successful airlines without 'Express' operations.

 

[BoeingBoy]

2. Express has a lower payscale, lower operating expenses, etc. and therefore has a lower CASM than Mainline.

Actually, this one isn't true - Express CASM is higher than mainline CASM by between 4 and 5 cents ex-fuel. What could maybe be argued is that Express has a lower CASM than mainline would if mainline operated the same Express aircraft over the same routes.

Jim

 

[ClueByFour]

1. Everyone always loves to dog Express, but I don't think Mainline wouldn't exist without it. Where are we going to get all of the customers to fill all of those big jets without Express hauling them in from the AVLs, EWNs and YUMs of the world?

Uhh, the way it used to be.

Piedmont (and Allegheny, to a point) used to run a 737 or a DC-9 on a route like CLT-GSO-AVL-TTN-ATL. Or PIT-CAK-SBN-DAY. It worked.

 

[UPNAWAY]

Jim didn't the growth in express and RJs come about in part becuase of SCOPE clauses?

Were the unions being short sighted and should they have let them in house with lower slaries?
Seems like both sides would be better off if all flying was in house.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Personal opinion only, but I think the unions (ALPA, APA, etc) were foolish to let jet flying be contracted out. Once that horse was out of the barn, there was no stopping it. Of course, at US (and possibly/probably the others) the pilots voted to allow the scope language changes so have no one to blame but the majority that voted for it.

That said, I suspect that the Express flying is less expensive than having mainline do the same flying with the same RJ's but not by much. A 12 year Republic captain makes $96/hr while a mainline E190 captain makes $96.64/hour currently (it gets to $102.56/hr in 2014).

The big difference in pilot pay is for the F/O's and it's a holdover from the commuter airline days where F/O's either moved up or moved on fairly quickly. F/O pay is about half of what it would be under the mainline pay model.

Jim

 

[redheadtempe33]

Thank you all for responding. I suspected it had to do with pay but I didn't really know. I guess at this point (other than outright buying an express carrier) the model will continue. I have to admit, in my short time with LCC, I have probably flown (non-rev) more express flights than mainline and I can't say I have anything to complain about. I have noticed a difference in the physical condition of the aircraft (I chuckle a little when I see the America West logos on Mesa flights) but the crew themselves seem nice and with it. It is too bad that we can't fly them all in house (after all better all the revenue, rather than splitting it with Mesa/Republic, etc.) but I would think it would be hard to pay pilots (maybe a certain hourly rate by type of aircraft?). And you are right about the short flights, that was not the way to phrase it. Out of Phoenix at least, Mesa operates quite a few long distance flights.
Thanks

 

[NCFL]

Actually, this one isn't true - Express CASM is higher than mainline CASM by between 4 and 5 cents ex-fuel. What could maybe be argued is that Express has a lower CASM than mainline would if mainline operated the same Express aircraft over the same routes.

Jim

Hi Jim - good to hear from you.
Maybe I'm missing something, or haven't had enough coffee yet. "Ex-fuel." Isn't that statement sort of like the one US made when it said it was "#1 on-time in '08," ex-WN? Also, does that CASM you mentioned factor in the cost savings of all of the lower-cost ground handling vis-a-vis EN personnel (who make WAY less money than their ML counterparts) that make up the entire Express picture?

Uhh, the way it used to be.

Piedmont (and Allegheny, to a point) used to run a 737 or a DC-9 on a route like CLT-GSO-AVL-TTN-ATL. Or PIT-CAK-SBN-DAY. It worked.

The tense you used when you wrote your post says it all: "used to run."

 

[BoeingBoy]

"Ex-fuel." Isn't that statement sort of like the one US made when it said it was "#1 on-time in '08," ex-WN?

Last night I was too lazy to try and find a figure for Express CASM so used the number reported in the investor updates, which is ex-fuel for both mainline and Express. Normally Express CASM isn't reported in the quarterly filings, but it was in the 4th quarter press release. According to that, mainline CASM was 14.62 cents and Express CASM was 18.45 cents.

There's just no escaping the fact that smaller jets have higher CASM (although lower segment costs).

Jim

 

[psw737]

Mainline could be taking some of the express flying back with the pending large rj greivance. I just don't see management getting rid of all that flying and I don't think USAPA is going to give it away for some other contract agenda.

 

[john john]

Express pay lowers the bar for the airline industry standard

 

[FlyOnWall]

Mainline could be taking some of the express flying back with the pending large rj greivance. I just don't see management getting rid of all that flying and I don't think USAPA is going to give it away for some other contract agenda.

Whats does the grievance involve? Is it about the Midatlantic thing?