Compensation Question

[Art Vandelay]

I am curious about something related to airline pay...

Not meaning to insult anyone or offend, but can someone please explain why airline pilots are paid depending upon the seats on the plane.

It seems to me that using that type of pay system, the other people, flight attendants, mechanics, etc should also follow that system. Certainly the flight attendant has a tougher job with more passengers, while the pilots basically have the same job and especially these days are insulated from the passengers. The maintenance people have a more expensive plane with a lot more expensive parts, more complicated systems, etc. Why is it only pilots under this plan?

I understand seniority progression, rank, etc, but not what the size of the plane has to do with pay.

Also if you use that system, why does a pilot of a mostly empty big plane get paid more than a pilot of a smaller plane with more passengers even flying the same route? I don't see the pilots as creating the revenue stream so I don't know why they are rewarded and the other employees are not.

Wouldn't it be much more efficient and a cost savings to have all pilots make their pay depending on years of service and rank?

I don't begrudge anyone fair compensation for their skills and expertise, I am just curious.

Regards,

Art Vandelay

 

[a320av8r]

A pilot is generating more revenue when an aircraft has more seats.
F/A's are staffed 1/50 no matter how many seats an aircraft has.

This is a formula generated a long time ago and from rumors I've heard may be changing.

 

[michael707767]

I always thought about it in terms of responsibility. A capt of a 777 is responsible for a whole lot more than a capt of a 737, in terms of money (the cost of the airplane and the potential for lawsuits if something happens) and lives. Ships captains get paid more based on the displacement of their ships, I think it fair that pilots get paid more based on the size of the aircraft.

 

[Freighterguynow]

'Not meaning to insult anyone or offend, but can someone please explain why airline pilots are paid depending upon the seats on the plane.'

Art,

The size of an aircraft makes a huge diffence in the difficulty controlling it. For lack of a better analogy, a commuter aircraft is to a 747 as is a go cart to a tractor trailer. Systems become more complex to learn and operate, mass and inertia are huge issues, and journeys stretch out several states and weather patterns.


'Wouldn't it be much more efficient and a cost savings to have all pilots make their pay depending on years of service and rank?'

It's been tried before with the most recent being UPS and Continental but, has ultimatly been abandoned.

 

[ClueByFour]

At a certain point, these comparisons become moot.

Yeah, comparing a B1900 to a 744 is not a good example. However, what about an ERJ-145 versus an MD-80?

Once you reach the "speed of the jet" and equip it with a glass cockpit, it is not that much of a stretch to say that the differences shrink dramatically.

 

[Doc]

comuter pilots are paid low because the airline knows that the comuter pilot needs the job more than the airline needs the pilot meaning that if you want to fly the big ones for the big money you have to earn you flight hours on the small ones .....unless you can afford to rent a jet to get 1000 hours of jet time or what ever is needed .........this way you can earn 800.00 a month to earn your hours.........

 

[javaboy]

the more correct answer might be

1 .learn to fly (6months to 1 year) (5-8000 bucks)
2. get instrument rating (another 6months) (perhaps 3000?)
3. get commercial certificate (250hrs) (another 10,000) time? 1-3 years
4. get multi engine rating (10hrs) (2-3000) 2 months
5. get experince to bring you to 1500 hours for your ATP (no way you can pay for this so you should probably get CFI or CFII or Multi I to build time) another 3000 for each. but you can do with only one. (perhaps 5 years?)
6. remember along the way you must stay current and keep your medicals up to date as well
7. your going to need a college degree to get past the first gate with most employers so might as well get one of those too.
now remember just starting out nobody is going to hire you so you pay for most of your flight time then as you gain time/experience you begin to offset costs (instructing, giving tours, perhaps even charters...again once you pass your 135 check ride after you have your commercial of course) now lets jump ahead a few years you got your 1500 hours of flight time now for your ATP (airline transport pilot license) depends upon you... 1 month ? or more 4000.00?

ok so here you are some 5-8 years later with your college degree and 1500 hours and the almight ATP.
(ok you could go to ERAU for 4 years and get your commercial and what 400 or 500 hrs? total time)for what 60,000 ?? they advertise these people get into the right seat of RJs but who knows post 9/11? i am not familar enough to comment more than that on those.

either way its years later now lets fill out your application.
there are 10,000 "airline" pilots furloughed you got your 4 year degree and if you did option A you have your 1500 hrs and ATP in a light twin or B your degree and maybe 400 hrs with only a commerical certificate (ERAU 60k). look around in the room of "candidates" chances are there are some Biz JET people, Some Military people, Some "commuter or Regional " people and some "ex airline people".
all would have Jet Expereience. of course lets look at the ex airline person your going up against someone probably a bit older (10 years?) but has what several type ratings in Large Jet airplanes, WELL over 10,000 hours of flight time again most of it in large passenger jets. as an employer which one are you going to hire?

more importantly as a passenger sitting in the back of this 200,000 lb jet moving 500mph towards a 10,000 ft rwy where perhaps the winds are howling, or if you wish calm winds but visability reported in FEET. now i ask you who do you want driving your loved ones around? now jump back to the question... after YOU have accomplished this then ask Why payscales are higher.

in otherwords while the scales are basically generated on 1. years of service 2. equipment flown 3. seat position. its akin to a small corporation, entry level, then more responsiblity= more pay finally senior or top of company commands top pay.

an airline pilot can earn his or her entire lifetime earnings on one approach. or go for years not having to do so but knowing that that person can rise to the occassion if needed is also why you pay more for more experience.


pilots will be paid what the market will bear. a few years ago the pendulm swung too far to the top in short order it swung too far to the bottom. i think it will find equalibrium begining this year and continuing into next as the entire economy recovers.

i merely meant to say the old walk a mile in my shoes before you judge.... the question might just answer itself after just a few lessons in a cessna. i would encourage one to try just for the experience.!!

 

[767jetz]

There are certainly similarities in skills sets required to fly let's say an RJ and a 767. However you still can't ignore the difference in responsibility and the pilot's direct effect on the bottom line. When you take a bigger jet with more PAX and longer routes, the effect of every decision becomes multipilied.

For example, look at fuel burn rates, landing fees, and servicing cost. For every minute of flight time saved on my jet, for every diversion I avoid due to proper planning, for every pound of fuel I save, etc., I have a greater effect on the bottom line than the pilots of smaller A/C and a lesser effect than pilots on a larger A/C. As for responsibility, the same logic can be used when considering the adverse effects of bad judgement when you consider liability, injuries from inflight turbulence, or even a simple go-around.

Why does an upper manager make more $ than a mid-level manager? Why do CEO's of large companies make more than CEO's of small ones? The bottom line is that their decisions have a greater effect on a larger number of people and a bigger piece of the pie.

Many years ago when I worked at a commuter, I had a boss who made an analogy that always stuck with me. He said that as an airline captain of a small turboprop, I should consider myself the CEO of a million dollar company everytime I take to the sky.

 

[ClueByFour]

There are certainly similarities in skills sets required to fly let's say an RJ and a 767. However you still can't ignore the difference in responsibility and the pilot's direct effect on the bottom line. When you take a bigger jet with more PAX and longer routes, the effect of every decision becomes multipilied.

Agreed. However, I'd submit that once the skillset is honed to a point where it's safe on either an RJ, narrowbody, or widebody, the pay should be based on seniority.

In a perfect world, that would allow folks to bid any equipment they might want, and still get paid at a level that their experience dictates. This does two things: it allows the company to shift folks around to particular fleets when needed, and allows the employee to not get shafted in the process. It would also allow a guy/gal who is happy flying the guppy around the east coast to do that until he hits 60, while still getting paid for his years of service.

The big hangup, of course, is the training requirement. The gotcha from the pilot perspective is that you could indeed spend your entire career flying the guppy up and down the coast, when you really want to head to CDG a few times a month in the 767.

Most of this, in the context of U, is moot in reality--presumably the FO on the 733 is what, a 15 year guy? As a pax (and weekend SEL pilot), I'm not going to be overly nervous if that same guy was PIC of the 330 taking me to LGW (pending his type transition and checkride and the like). I have not followed it that closely, but it strikes me that to get into a major in today's day and age (assuming no recall lists existed), you basically have to have several thousand hours, with a bunch of them being multi and turbine, and have the ATP (if not the type on a 737 at LUV). Hell, it's been awhile since I've seen a fresh-faced PIC on an RJ (domestically, anyway). Some of these kids in Europe don't look old enough to shave, much less input their own flight plans