East MEC and Pilots are Wrong

[traderjake]

The East MEC and Pilots' reaction the arbitration award is way out of line.

Date of Hire was never an viable option under the ALPA merger policy.

No objective person is going to make a pilot without a job senior to a pilot working on the property.

No objective person is going to make a Reserve First Officer senior to a Block Holding Captain.

The Merger Committee knew it, that is why DOH was not our orginal position.

The arbitrator told us so when he said "Both sides need to serously reconsider their positions.

Instead of being leaders and telling us the truth, the MEC took the cowardly and polictally expedient route and went along with the vocal majority.

It's not the AWA pilots fault we worked for a stagnant, poorly run company. The arbitrator was not going to give us his job as compensation.

The award is unfair, not because it's not DOH, but because it gives no to credit for our greater attrition due to retirements. If the retirement age is raised that issue is not very relevant.

It's our own fault that we did not get attrition due retirements because instead of making a case for that, we tried to make the case for DOH.

 

[bigbusdrvr]

The East MEC and Pilots' reaction the arbitraition award is way out of line.

Date of Hire was never an viable option under the ALPA merger policy.

No objective person is going to make a pilot without a job senior to a pilot working on the property.

No objective person is going to make a Reserve First Officer senior to a Block Holding Captain.

The Merger Committee knew it, that is why DOH was not our orginal position.

The arbitraitor told us this when he said "Both sides need to serously reconsider their positions.

Instead of being leaders and telling us the truth, the MEC took the cowardly and polictally expedient route and went along with the vocal majority.

It's not the AWA pilots fault we worked for a stagnant, poorly run company. The arbitraitor was not going to give us his job as compensation.

The award is unfair, not because it's not DOH, but because it gives no to credit for our greater attrition due to retirements. If the retirement age is raised that issue is not very relevant.

It's our own fault that we did not get attrition due retirements because instead of making a case for that, we tried to make the case for DOH, which was not going to happen.

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I believe when the dust settles ( it always does) this post may be one of the most accurate accounts of the debacle.

East should have gotten protected to gain from east attrition. DOH across the board did this and then some.

And their's the rub, DOH penalized west to much in the eyes of the arb, we should have given more thought to a hibrid that protected west yet allowed east to gain from east attrition....

Water under the bridge now!!

 

[Elevation]

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we should have given more thought.....

There it is, now we live with the outcome.

 

[ussnark]

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I believe when the dust settles ( it always does) this post may be one of the most accurate accounts of the debacle.

East should have gotten protected to gain from east attrition. DOH across the board did this and then some.

And their's the rub, DOH penalized west to much in the eyes of the arb, we should have given more thought to a hibrid that protected west yet allowed east to gain from east attrition....

Water under the bridge now!!

I don't believe this is wutb.

It should have been DOH, with conditions and restrictions, just as was advocated (or directed to be advocated - can't speak for what was actually said). That would have protected east attrition without any interference from west. West would have been protected with whatever conditions and protections they wanted for as long as they wanted.

If east attrition was truly recognized and understood, after five or so years, the lists would have come together in a more workable manner - according to Kirsch.

Instead, the rooty beers got greedy, wanting it now. The ruling deprives easties of the opportunity to make up for their last few years by basically giving every eastie (except the protected) a built in furlough of, on average, 12 years. How does one like them crackers?

If US gets bought by anyone but UAL, the rooty beers will be screwed.

The questions is: how "neutral" was the UAL neutral? I can only imagine what he whispered into the ear of the 80+ year old man.

 

[SkyRat]

The East MEC and Pilots' reaction the arbitration award is way out of line.

Date of Hire was never an viable option under the ALPA merger policy.

No objective person is going to make a pilot without a job senior to a pilot working on the property.

No objective person is going to make a Reserve First Officer senior to a Block Holding Captain.

The Merger Committee knew it, that is why DOH was not our orginal position.

The arbitrator told us so when he said "Both sides need to serously reconsider their positions.

Instead of being leaders and telling us the truth, the MEC took the cowardly and polictally expedient route and went along with the vocal majority.

It's not the AWA pilots fault we worked for a stagnant, poorly run company. The arbitrator was not going to give us his job as compensation.

The award is unfair, not because it's not DOH, but because it gives no to credit for our greater attrition due to retirements. If the retirement age is raised that issue is not very relevant.

It's our own fault that we did not get attrition due retirements because instead of making a case for that, we tried to make the case for DOH.

I agree with you traderjake... All or Nothing was way OFF!

18 months of negotiations and all your (East) MC, as directed by their MEC, only pursued DOH. Nicolau told them over and over that DOH was not going to float.

I believe that the West MC proposed several options that would have been better than what Nicolau came out with. But the DOH "blindness" killed the East.

Time to move on Kidds!

 

[767jetz]

It's our own fault that we did not get attrition due retirements because instead of making a case for that, we tried to make the case for DOH.

This is the most honest, mature, and reasonable post I have read since this whole mess began.

I can certainly see your perspective with regard to attrition. I wonder if this would be enough to quiet the unreasonable "DOH crowd" if the West chose to negotiate something for you to recapture that attrition without altering the rest of the award. I doubt it, but you never know.

I applaud you for your attitude and hope that there are more like-minded pilots who will be vocal with your MEC.

 

[aquagreen73s]

The award is unfair, not because it's not DOH, but because it gives no to credit for our greater attrition due to retirements. If the retirement age is raised that issue is not very relevant.

Although that could be argued both ways (that the East pilots do receive the benefit from attrition), I am surprised that some sort of mechanism like a fence wasn't put in place to allow East F/Os to benefit exclusively for a period of three or four years. But that is something the East MC should have thought of before. It would not have weakened their case one bit had they simply said that no matter what happens, there needs to be a fence for whatever number of years because .....(finish the sentence). It sounds as though they connected every facet of their case with DOH. Fences and DOH. Widebody and DOH. DOh DOH DOH. When Nicolau looked at the final briefs and looked for anything he could take from the East brief that didn't have DOH connected to it, he found nothing. It's pure speculation and always will be at this point, but the likely reason for Nicolau not sticking a fence into the award goes to the East's inflexible DOH stance.

 

[73320]

Trader,

I think your post is spot on. I was surprised the heavies were not fenced off for a greater duration similar to NW/Republic. Fortunately for east pilots most west pilots are not interested in your bases or capturing your attrition, so you little change to status quo is expected.

Hopefully the bitterness can pass and you can have some self examination of what happened and where you need to direct your efforts in the future. All pilots can empathize with your plight. Sounds like many want to burn the place down after this self inflicted wound, when they might not see much diffence in movement had fences been installed. Lots of irony in life sometimes.

Most on the west feel that this award is status quo for them, as in life goes on as before the merger in terms of same seat, smae base, same seniority and a reasonable award under the most challenging of circumstances. I bet the east will experience similar results and movement in base.

Goodluck to us all!

 

[767jetz]

If US gets bought by anyone but UAL, the rooty beers will be screwed.

I don't quite understand this statement. Are you implying that the UAL neutral made some deal with the West negotiators that we'd give them special dispensation if UA ever bought US? If that's what you meant, it's preposterous.

This award WILL set a precedent for any future consolidation, and will result in far fewer "screw jobs" (regardless of who the merger partners are) than if the East negotiators got their way.

IMHO, the quacks running and manipulating the East MEC finally, and rightfully, got put in their place by Nicolau. And apparently, from some of the posters in this thread those quacks are not the ONLY voice in the East. There are far more reasonable pilots at East, who unfortunately are not in control of their union.

Let's be frank. In the eyes of the "DOH-or-bust" crowd, (USA320pilot included) this award has very little to do with who gets wests flying, or any minimal growth widebody jobs, or the poor guys on furlough, or the poor MDA guys, or attrition. In their twisted and selfserving minds the pie-in-the-sky was the NEXT merger. They want DOH to set a precedent, and to position themselves as high as possible so when DAL or NWA or UAL comes to town with their 777's and 747's and their large international network, these pilots would reap the benefit and regain what they lost to so many years of working for a poorly managed airline.

Every pilot I talk to outside of USAirways can see this for what it is... An attempted power grab for future consolidation by a miss-directed MEC. This award guarantees that any future mergers with the "Big Guys" will result in fair and equitable distribution of wealth, seniority, and flying based on career expectations and relative seniority.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Let's be frank. In the eyes of the "DOH-or-bust" crowd, (USA320pilot included) this award has very little to do with who gets wests flying, or any minimal growth widebody jobs, or the poor guys on furlough, or the poor MDA guys, or attrition. In their twisted and selfserving minds the pie-in-the-sky was the NEXT merger. They want DOH to set a precedent, and to position themselves as high as possible so when DAL or NWA or UAL comes to town with their 777's and 747's and their large international network, these pilots would reap the benefit and regain what they lost to so many years of working for a poorly managed airline.

Every pilot I talk to outside of USAirways can see this for what it is... An attempted power grab for future consolidation by a miss-directed MEC. This award guarantees that any future mergers with the "Big Guys" will result in fair and equitable distribution of wealth, seniority, and flying based on career expectations and relative seniority.

Lost in their anesthetised world of arrogance, the East MC and MEC failed to understand what so many other ALPA pilots (and I suspect quite a number of East pilots) that DOH is a sure loser. An ounce of humility likely would have gone a long way with Nicolau. The attrition benefit is far beyond whatever benefit a handful of A330 and old 767s bring, and that should have completely separated from any reference to DOH.

Other than writing the book on how not to arbitrate, the East MC and MEC succeeded in putting to rest the "DOH solely controls" argument. May it permanently rest in peace and may the concept that MCs fully and vigorously argue their cases on the merits enjoy an enduring existence.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Right, wrong or indifferent... the decision handed to the East pilots was largely found as "unacceptable" to them. It appears to me that the East pilots are making a future for themselves now using whatever means available.

The human fight for survival is alive an well.

Every person has a breaking point and it was time for fight or flight.

I'd say we've seen plenty of flight from US Airways for 2 decades now.

 

[traderjake]

Right, wrong or indifferent... the decision handed to the East pilots was largely found as "unacceptable" to them. It appears to me that the East pilots are making a future for themselves now using whatever means available.

In other words...................I want what I want no matter how irrational it is.

 

[Piedmont1984]

The East MEC and Pilots' reaction the arbitration award is way out of line.

Date of Hire was never an viable option under the ALPA merger policy.

No objective person is going to make a pilot without a job senior to a pilot working on the property.

No objective person is going to make a Reserve First Officer senior to a Block Holding Captain.

The Merger Committee knew it, that is why DOH was not our orginal position.

The arbitrator told us so when he said "Both sides need to serously reconsider their positions.

Instead of being leaders and telling us the truth, the MEC took the cowardly and polictally expedient route and went along with the vocal majority.

It's not the AWA pilots fault we worked for a stagnant, poorly run company. The arbitrator was not going to give us his job as compensation.

The award is unfair, not because it's not DOH, but because it gives no to credit for our greater attrition due to retirements. If the retirement age is raised that issue is not very relevant.

It's our own fault that we did not get attrition due retirements because instead of making a case for that, we tried to make the case for DOH.

The award is unfair because it trashes the very thing we all live and breath by, and that is our seniority. It is an asset you can't cheat to acquire, there are no shortcuts. You earn it one day at at time. That is until now. Now a three year pilot suddenly and with one misquided decision, has the seniority of a nineteen year pilot.

You build up seniority over a period of many years, decades for most of us in the East, and then it is taken away.

I understand that seniority, as a legal term, does not translate across company lines - as in the case of a merger. But what it is based on certainly should, and that is longevity, time in service, date of hire, date of ALPA,
etc. etc. Pick your term, I don't care.

The airline pilot profession has always used, as a bedrock principle, the concept that those who have been here longer, those who have paid their dues, those who were here before you, get to go ahead. This system, for better or worse, is not a meritocracy. We move ahead by our seniority number and our seniority number is everything. Everything else - is smoke and mirrors.

 

[767jetz]

East MC and MEC succeeded in putting to rest the "DOH solely controls" argument. May it permanently rest in peace and may the concept that MCs fully and vigorously argue their cases on the merits enjoy an enduring existence.

Amen brother. B)

 

[Piedmont1984]

The award is unfair because it trashes the very thing we all live and breath by, and that is our seniority. It is an asset you can't cheat to acquire, there are no shortcuts. You earn it one day at at time. That is until now. Now a three year pilot suddenly and with one misquided decision, has the seniority of a nineteen year pilot.

You build up seniority over a period of many years, decades for most of us in the East, and then it is taken away.

I understand that seniority, as a legal term, does not translate across company lines - as in the case of a merger. But what it is based on certainly should, and that is longevity, time in service, date of hire, date of ALPA,
etc. etc. Pick your term, I don't care.

The airline pilot profession has always used, as a bedrock principle, the concept that those who have been here longer, those who have paid their dues, those who were here before you, get to go ahead. This system, for better or worse, is not a meritocracy. We move ahead by our seniority number and our seniority number is everything. Everything else - is smoke and mirrors.

Career expectations is a nonsensical term inserted into merger policy when UAL, for their own self interest, took DOH out. In the Air Force we had a form on which you could articulate your career expectations, it was also known as a dream sheet.

Any one, in this industry, post 911, who says they have career expectations which exceed next Monday's bid sheet is deluding themselves.

And another thing. I am so sick of hearing the East was DOA. Parker, and a bunch of savy investors, came to the conclusion that we were worth a great deal. And in 2006, the profit that this company made came from this so called carcass.