Elvis has been seen flying into Las Vegas on JetBlue!

Busdrvr

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On 11/7/2002 7:12:40 AM KCFlyer wrote:

There really are people out there who are flying for the "low fares" because they have the opportunity to fly, and they also have something that many of the higher paid airline pilots don't have - a measure of job security.

Uh, you're from KC, ever hear of an outfit name Vanguard? How about National, West Pac or Air South? Despite the success of SWA, MOST low fare airlines GO OUT OF BUSINESS!



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KCFlyer

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[P]Busdriver - you're willing to trade off the risk of cancer from radition levels in flight for a big paycheck? I wouldn't. You're stretching things a bit far, don't you think? [/P]
[P]Yes, I've heard of Vanguard, WestPac and Air South (although I don't believe AirSouth served MCI). AFAIK, all ceased operation without a single passenger fatality. That would tend to tell me that their pilots were just as qualified as the others, regardless of their paycheck.[/P]
 

Busdrvr

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On 11/7/2002 4:20:54 PM KCFlyer wrote:

Busdriver - you're willing to trade off the risk of cancer from radition levels in flight for a big paycheck? I wouldn't. You're stretching things a bit far, don't you think? [/P]


NOT AT ALL!! A part of a coal miners compensation is based on the risks he assumes. Same with just about ANY field. Lawyers have in some cases tried to use this risk premium to quantify the value of a persons life in wrongfull death suits.


Yes, I've heard of Vanguard, WestPac and Air South (although I don't believe AirSouth served MCI). AFAIK, all ceased operation without a single passenger fatality. That would tend to tell me that their pilots were just as qualified as the others, regardless of their paycheck.[/P]

I Left out Midway. I responded to your theory that the low paid guys are trading job security for pay. absolutely NOT true. You just brought up safety. fair enough. None of those airlines flew enough RPMs to justify any statistically significant numbers individually. You might want to do some research and compare rates of pilot violations, that may give you a better picture. You could lump all the low paid providers and get a better picture on the low paid guys WRT accident rates. Go ahead, add Airtran (Valujet), Midwest Express, Air Fla, and then correct for RPM's.
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eagleflip

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Aug 20, 2002
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On Nov 7 Busdriver wrote:
...Arbitrary? Our wage rates go back to formulas that date to the 40's. I'd say the wage rates at the latest Fly-by-night operation are much more arbitrary. BTW, how many zero's in a gazzillion. You are absolutely correct, wage pressure works BOTH WAYS! We brought your's up, your bring ours down... Don't ya think your's may be on the way down as a result?

How about a compensation system tied directly to performance such as stocks and profit sharing?

You mean like a system that pays directly proportional to speed and TOGW of the jets? or are you foolish enough to base YOU salary on SOMEBODY ELSE'S PROFORMANCE? (ie your CEO).

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There are several levels of corporate flying that pay as much as JetBlue does--does this mean that JetBlue pulls their wage down? Or does JetBlue and other discount carriers make corporate pay increase? Yep, there is an equilibrium out there that is met by the open market driving wages where they have to go in order for businesses to succeed. Unions meet needs by ensuring management does not take advantage of labor.

At what point does labor figure out that too high a wage will lead to the demise of the company? You're in that position right now.

Am I foolish enough to bet my salary on someone else's performance? You do. I do. Unless you own your own business, we all do. So what's your point?

Gee...seems like I'm the instructor now!
 

KCFlyer

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[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE]----------------[BR]On 11/7/2002 4:30:52 PM Busdrvr wrote:
[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE]None of those airlines flew enough RPMs to justify any statistically significant numbers individually.  You might want to do some research and compare rates of pilot violations, that may give you a better picture. You could lump all the low paid providers and get a better picture on the low paid guys WRT accident rates. Go ahead, add Airtran (Valujet), Midwest Express, Air Fla, and then correct for RPM's. [BR]----------------[BR][/BLOCKQUOTE][BR]
[P][/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P][/P]Shouldn't I add Southwest into that lowfare mix?????? That might tend to skew the argument back over to my side... And Valujet, Air Florida, and Midwest Express (are they really low fare or are they just bad pilots over there??) all had one fatal accident. So I'd take you up on that...Let's lump Valuejet, Air Florida, Airtran/Valujet, Southwest, JetBlue, WestPac,Air South, National, ATA, People Express, New York Air, Vanguard, Muse Air, Jet America, and whatever low fares might have existed and compare the accidents for their combined total RPM's. Even with the notorious Everglades accident wasn't due to pilot error, and you seem to imply in almost all your posts that lower paid pilots are somehow less capable than their higher paid brethern.
 

Busdrvr

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On 11/7/2002 6:13:12 PM KCFlyer wrote:

[/P]Shouldn't I add Southwest into that lowfare mix??????

You're confusing low fare with low pay. big diff. In SWA's defense, there is some historical reason to believe that their stock option will have some value, and the entire compensation package has been competative over the course of the last 20 years. My only prob with SWA's pay scales are that they rely too much on the value of stock options, and assume you can dilute shareholder value forever while continuing to grow at above 10% per year indefinately. I fear that by the time they realize that just doesn't happen, the contract wages will be pressured down permanately everywhere.


That might tend to skew the argument back over to my side... And Valujet, Air Florida, and Midwest Express (are they really low fare or are they just bad pilots over there??) all had one fatal accident. So I'd take you up on that...Let's lump Valuejet, Air Florida, Airtran/Valujet, Southwest, JetBlue, WestPac,Air South, National, ATA, People Express, New York Air, Vanguard, Muse Air, Jet America, and whatever low fares might have existed and compare the accidents for their combined total RPM's. Even with the notorious Everglades accident wasn't due to pilot error, and you seem to imply in almost all your posts that lower paid pilots are somehow less capable than their higher paid brethern.


Did you do the math? Pay doesn't determine competance, but competance can determine pay. As for accidents that weren't the result of Pilot error, I'd say look at UAL 232 if you want an example of the value of the absolute best crews you can find. Look at Sen Wellstone. despite being a union man he went cheap on his travel. That accident was the result of one of three conditions. First, it could have been pilot error, second, it could have been a recoverable A/C malfunction or weather condition or third, it could have been somethinbg that Chuck Yeager couldn't handle. In two of the three cases, a good crew could have saved him. Is that a risk worth taking?
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Busdrvr

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Unions meet needs by ensuring management does not take advantage of labor.

Don't fool yourself, unions also force, artificially, wages up. Regulations do the same thing. I'd bet you could find plenty of folks who'd be willing to medical procedures much more cheaply than a doctor. heck they could specialize. Why do you need 8 years of college to learn how to do a boob job? It's not rocket science. The minimum requirements to sit in the right seat of an airliner are embarassingly low. There are lots of garbage collectors out there who would gladly go out and get that rating if they knew they'd have a job at an airline paying on $40K a year. Would that be a good thing? He'd probably think $40k is a descent wage

At what point does labor figure out that too high a wage will lead to the demise of the company? You're in that position right now.

It's comical to hear folks like you boast of your long term viability after two long years. Especially when DAL is plotting to reconfigure 757s with cattle car seats in an effort to literally kill you at the same time.

Am I foolish enough to bet my salary on someone else's performance? You do. I do. Unless you own your own business, we all do. So what's your point?

Wait, you just said your pay was based on YOUR performance. Seems to me that according to the DOT the best performing airlines in those areas pilots can help control were U and UAL (on-time performance). My salary is based on a contract NOT on financial performance. Financial performance will result in me negotiating a lower rate in light of the curent industry condition, but again, my income is NOT directly tied to the performance of our executives.

Gee...seems like I'm the instructor now!

yeah right
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KCFlyer

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[P] I'd say look at UAL 232 if you want an example of the value of the absolute best crews you can find.[/P]
[P]The wife had the pleasure of meeting Bill Records on a cruise last June. Described him as a very humble man. I told her humble airline pilot was an oxymoron[/P]
[P] Look at Sen Wellstone. despite being a union man he went cheap on his travel. That accident was the result of one of three conditions. First, it could have been pilot error, second, it could have been a recoverable A/C malfunction or weather condition or third, it could have been somethinbg that Chuck Yeager couldn't handle. In two of the three cases, a good crew could have saved him. Is that a risk worth taking? [/P]
[P]Which airline was he flying and what other airlines operate that type of aircraft? Oh...it wasn't an airliner...it was a charter operation. They don't operate under the same FAR's, do they? As far as going on the cheap, it seems that try as I might, I just can't charter an aircraft - ANY aircraft - for less money than an airline's airfare. In that case, if he'd wanted to travel cheap, he most likely would have been on a NWA DC-9. Bottom line, you're talking apples and oranges with this one. [/P]
[P]Do you ever read Flying magazine? I do...there's a column called Aftermath. The February 2002 issue has an intersting thing in it. Allow me to quote part of the first paragraph:[/P]
[P][blockquote]The airline transport pilot had 25,000 hours and ratings for Boeing 707,720,727,757, and 767, and for the Lockheed L1011[/blockquote][/P]
[P]I don't know of many lowfares that offer that variety of aircraft. Anyhoo - the subject of this column was this - He ran out of gas in a Piper Arrow...how do you 'slpain that one? [/P]
 

Busdrvr

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On 11/7/2002 9:41:32 PM KCFlyer wrote:

Which airline was he flying and what other airlines operate that type of aircraft? Oh...it wasn't an airliner...it was a charter operation. They don't operate under the same FAR's, do they? As far as going "on the cheap", it seems that try as I might, I just can't charter an aircraft - ANY aircraft - for less money than an airline's airfare.

You sure about that? There are better charter operations (exec jet), that don't use convicted felons as pilots. I'd imagine the quality product exec jet offers is better than the one Wellstone purchased.


Do you ever read Flying magazine? I do...there's a column called "Aftermath". The February 2002 issue has an intersting thing in it. Allow me to quote part of the first paragraph:[/P]
[blockquote]The airline transport pilot had 25,000 hours and ratings for Boeing 707,720,727,757, and 767, and for the Lockheed L1011[/blockquote][/P]I don't know of many lowfares that offer that variety of aircraft. Anyhoo - the subject of this column was this - He ran out of gas in a Piper Arrow...how do you 'slpain that one? [/P]


I would say it wasn't UAL but we did own L1011s from, I think, 87-89 (pan Am jets), but I don't think we took any 707s. I used to enjoy aftermath, but the rest of the mag is no longer that interesting to me. I will give you this, about the only thing more dangerous in a light airplane than a Kennedy or a DR, is an Airline pilot. And at UAL, we admittedly tend to lose a pilot or two each year in small airplanes for some of the stupidest reasons. But in any case, don't confuse hours with competance. If you're an idiot, no amount of hours will correct it. BTW, when I got hired, the two (of five interviewed) offered jobs had the lowest number of hours.

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Jeff G

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On 11/7/2002 9:57:46 PM Busdrvr wrote:

But in any case, don't confuse hours with competance. If you're an idiot, no amount of hours will correct it.

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But in any case, don't confuse $$$$ with competance. If you're an idiot, no amount of pay will correct it.
 

Busdrvr

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On 11/7/2002 11:42:48 PM Jeff G wrote:

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On 11/7/2002 9:57:46 PM Busdrvr wrote:

But in any case, don't confuse "hours" with competance. If you're an idiot, no amount of hours will correct it.

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But in any case, don't confuse $$$$ with competance. If you're an idiot, no amount of pay will correct it.

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Yeah, but but being rich and stupid is a lot more fun than being poor and stupid, which brings us back to that overweight stoned has-been on the Jet-blu flight being Anna Nicole, not Elvis...There, the circle is complete, we may now close the thread
[img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/9.gif']
 

KCFlyer

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But in any case, don't confuse hours with competance. If you're an idiot, no amount of hours will correct it. [BR][BR]Don't close it just yet....I was kind of hoping for this kind of response, since you have often times cited the issue of low time captains flying for JetBlue. Seems you just contradicted yourself with that statement.
 

Busdrvr

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On 11/8/2002 7:06:12 AM KCFlyer wrote:

But in any case, don't confuse "hours" with competance. If you're an idiot, no amount of hours will correct it.

Don't close it just yet....I was kind of hoping for this kind of response, since you have often times cited the "issue" of low time captains flying for JetBlue. Seems you just contradicted yourself with that statement.
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Not at all, experience is important, all I said is if your an idiot, you'll just be an experienced idiot. Garbage in Garbage out. It's ironic that some of the lowest paying airline jobs have some of the highest requirements.
 

Jeff G

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On 11/8/2002 7:06:12 AM KCFlyer wrote:

But in any case, don't confuse "hours" with competance. If you're an idiot, no amount of hours will correct it.

Don't close it just yet....I was kind of hoping for this kind of response, since you have often times cited the "issue" of low time captains flying for JetBlue. Seems you just contradicted yourself with that statement.
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Oh, let it go. Don't hold it against busdrvr that he himself doesn't have the experience to get hired at JetBlue.

Actually, I don't know that. But it's a fact that the minimums are higher at JetBlue than at almost any other airline, and we regularly have to turn away some very high time pilots who don't meet all of the requirements. Many of those pilots are high time (often Airbus qualified) first officers with not enough PIC experience. A number of major airline furloughees have to apply elsewhere because they don't have the right kind of experience to qualify.

In these times, we have far more qualified applicants than jobs to give them. If airlines start hiring like gangbusters again (in five years or so), I expect JetBlue will be big enough and prestigious enough to continue to attract quality applicants even with somewhat lower than standard pay scales. If I'm wrong, the pilot marketplace will make that error plain. In the meantime, we'll be hiring in steady numbers, more than most airlines.