SuperBowl on LiveTV!

Rhino

Senior
Aug 20, 2002
308
0
Bus, you state some things as fact that simply aren't. Like your earlier assertion that United Shuttle was successful.

As far as JB compensation compared to UAL, you forgot about stock holdings.

As far as Song pilots getting paid mainline rates, I'm sure that's DALPA's plan. I'm sure it's not DAL's.

U/UAL operational performance has been great lately. When one reduces one's schedule, it's easier to achieve the low utilization rates which those dinosaur business models create.

If I was a United pilot, I'd be embarrassed by your crass act.
 

Busdrvr

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
2,217
0
[blockquote]
----------------
On 1/29/2003 11:25:03 PM Speedbird wrote:

"Another classic flamebait post without any substance.

You and the rest of your kind still don't get it. IT IS THE PEOPLE that make the difference between jetBlue and anyone who wants to replicate their success."


No substance? I just made the point that YOU think it's the people. Of course if it truely WERE the people, jet blue would have the most expensive people in the industry NOT the most expensive entertainment system. People vote with money, and you CEO just did. but again "the people"? What do the pilots at Jblu do differantly (other than not wear hats, get paid less and play video games on the laptop while they should be paying attention to the job at cruise)? Is it that you make lots of neat announcements? If so, on behalf of all you pax, please SHUT UP, you keep interupting Springer just as the midget TV is about to come to blows with the lady from three trailers down the street.

"TVs, rapid turnarounds, and high utilization of airplanes will not be enough to shut them down. And the way the collective management teams at all the majors (except LUV) are taking major craps on their employees, don't expect them to go the extra mile to serve their customers anytime soon."


I guess your "vast experience" at other airlines is the basis for your belief that the employees aren't "going the extra mile". I guess "going the extra mile" would be pretty easy if the standard was to give our pax a few Blue M&Ms and Chips. You are correct, the management teams at the other airlines are taking a "crap" on it's employees. they want us to make Jetblu wages. It's just unbelievable to me that someone who says he has an MBA can actually believe the stuff you're spotting. You think that the recipe for success is to get a CEO with ADD (and who can't seem to hold a job for more than a few years, and sold SWA a notoriously poorly trained airline {Morris}) along with the least experienced cadre of employees in the industry. Open your eyes IT'S THE TV'S!!! and the "PT cruiser, beanie baby, pet rock" unexplainable craze behavior of the public toward anything new and "rare". Funny thing is crazes wear off. Now you can accuse anyone who doesn't "believe" in your "messiah" as bashing, but not once in this string did I launch a personal attack on the jetblu employees other than to point out that they are PAID LESS which props up the bottom line, and that they (as a result of being paid less) are typically less experienced. For juvinile "personal attacks on OAL employees" I think you need to read your fellow employess rose colored responses.
----------------
[/blockquote]
 

Busdrvr

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
2,217
0
[blockquote]
----------------
On 1/30/2003 10:55:13 AM Rhino wrote:

"Bus, you state some things as fact that simply aren't. Like your earlier assertion that United Shuttle was successful."

Stopped SWA growth in CAL and promoted the "war" video and a 5 year pay freeze at SWA, yeah, must not have worked....

"As far as JB compensation compared to UAL, you forgot about stock holdings."


Add it up, how many options, and at what price. How many can you cash a year? What's the B-Fund contribution, A plan? 401K match? Yeah, I have some buddies who had a couple hundred thousand in Airline stock (at HIGHLY profitable airlines). oh course that stocks worthless. If you think putting your families financial future purely behind the gamble that there won't be some sort of incident at a fledgling airline or that it's ADD CEO who hasn't stayed at ANY job for any long period of time, will stick around, then you aren't the type of risk adverse person who should be flying pax. Did you fly at AirSouth? How'd that work out?

"As far as Song pilots getting paid mainline rates, I'm sure that's DALPA's plan. I'm sure it's not DAL's."

According to press releases it is. But when the rates are DOUBLE (not even counting pension plans) there is a long way to go before you "match" "employee savings" at Jblu. Pretty sad when a vast majority of your business plan is to employ the cheapest labor you can find.

"U/UAL operational performance has been great lately. When one reduces one's schedule, it's easier to achieve the low utilization rates which those dinosaur business models create."

Or in other words, you can't keep up. UAL and U parked a large part of it's fleets. Utilization for each A/C is down, but not that substatially. FWIW, my pax don't really give a **** if they jet they are flying on flew 12.5 hours yesterday, they just want to get to DSM on time safely (with a very low cancellation rate).

"If I was a United pilot, I'd be embarrassed by your crass act."

You're not though are you?


----------------
[/blockquote]
 

Speedbird

Advanced
Aug 20, 2002
134
0
www.usaviation.com
I just got off the conference call this morning and it provided some great insights beyond the press release.

David Neeleman mentioned that the CASM of 6.32 cents would have been lower had it not been for the inclusion of profit sharing to jetBlue employees. Without it the CASM would have been 6.12 cents. Of course David Neeleman said this is one expense he is more than happy to pay because it provides such a huge dividend in return.

He also mentioned that over 50% of its passengers are turned on to jetBlue through word of mouth from other customers. This is one reason why jetBlue's sales and marketing expenses dropped by over 32% in 2002.

Another revelation by Mr. Neeleman dealt with the Christmas day snowstorm in NYC. He, and his mamgement team made the decision to get as many of its customers as possible to their destinations even if it took all night to do it. This decision required a herculean effort by EVERY employee of jetBlue to provide the needed service and effort to make it happen. The airline even leased two aircraft from a third party to get their passengers to their destinations. For those who couldn't be accomodated, jetBlue provided free vouchers for future travel and refunds.

In all it cost the airline almost $2 million. Yet despite this costly day, jetBlue still posted a quarterly operating profit margin of almost 17%.

I wonder how many airlines would have done the same thing?

Busdrvr, this is what I'm talking about when I say the difference is the people, from the very top to the very bottom. Instead of insulting the good people of jetBlue for "cheapening" the profession. Why don't you educate yourself about what it takes to make customers truly happy in this commodity business.

I see your posts are winning you a lot of respect on these boards again.

Keep up the great job of making yourself look like an arrogant pompous a$$. If you keep it up you'll guarantee yourself a spot in cyber oblivion, as more and more people just ignore your ill-conceived and prejudiced opinions.
 

Rhino

Senior
Aug 20, 2002
308
0
Bus, your response re Shuttle's success is just stupid. Shuttle got it's butt kicked trying to compete with SWA. That's why they pulled out of head-to-head competition and turned it into a hub feeder.

Where's the press release saying that DAL plans to have the pilots fly at mainline rates on Song? Another falsehood.

Never worked at Air South. I know several who did. They all were your equal as pilots and your superior as professionals.
 

Farley

Advanced
Aug 21, 2002
190
0
BUSDRVR,
I hope all goes well for United. Your hatred is sad. Your bitterness is unfortunate. You need counseling, and some help with your spelling.
 

Busdrvr

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
2,217
0
[blockquote]
----------------
On 1/30/2003 10:56:47 AM Speedbird wrote:

"David Neeleman mentioned that the CASM of 6.32 cents would have been lower had it not been for the inclusion of profit sharing to jetBlue employees. Without it the CASM would have been 6.12 cents. Of course David Neeleman said this is one expense he is more than happy to pay because it provides such a huge dividend in return."

So WITH your profit sharing check, how much did you make per hour? How does that compare to EVERY other airline. How much MX was figured into that CASM?

"Another revelation by Mr. Neeleman dealt with the Christmas day snowstorm in NYC. He, and his mamgement team made the decision to get as many of its customers as possible to their destinations even if it took all night to do it."

We do that EVERY DAY. We keep spares available (leading to higher CASMs) on a daily basis to fill in the holes. I think UAL added lift to NYC over christmas. I flew extra lift over the thanksgiving holidays.


"This decision required a herculean effort by EVERY employee of jetBlue to provide the needed service and effort to make it happen. The airline even leased two aircraft from a third party to get their passengers to their destinations. For those who couldn't be accomodated, jetBlue provided free vouchers for future travel and refunds."

What you discribed is what other airlines do EVERY DAY! It's all smoke and mirrors. "we actually spent a few extra bucks giving people what they paid for (or possibly less if the leased jets didn't have TV's)"

"I wonder how many airlines would have done the same thing?"

UAL

"Busdrvr, this is what I'm talking about when I say the difference is the people, from the very top to the very bottom. Instead of insulting the good people of jetBlue for "cheapening" the profession. Why don't you educate yourself about what it takes to make customers truly happy in this commodity business."

And what is that? You describe doing EXACTLY what major airlines have been doing for years as some wonderful elixer. try educating YOURSELF. Again what do the pilots at jetblue do that's differant? NOTHING, IT'S THE CRAZE MENTALITY AND THE TVs. Did you hiring department somehow figure out the secret handshake to find employees who magically get it? I definately see your point from reading Farley's insightful posts.

----------------
[/blockquote]
 

jbu320

Member
Aug 21, 2002
93
0
Visit site
Bus, You are one sick puppy. In all my 'vast' experience and years in this business I have never seen anyone so eaten up with it. There are lots of us who don't work at UAL who have worked for dinosaurs of the past that were far superior in service and 'experience' to your operation of today. It is ashamed that we reach the level of grovelling that you have to blame the rest of the world for the wake up call you are getting with your concessions and reality check. It's business man and you better learn to roll with it or your heart will definitely explode. On second thought, maybe that wouldn't be a bad thing. Silence is golden.
 

Busdrvr

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
2,217
0
[blockquote]
----------------
On 1/30/2003 1:26:05 PM jbu320 wrote:

"Bus, You are one sick puppy. In all my 'vast' experience and years in this business I have never seen anyone so eaten up with it. There are lots of us who don't work at UAL who have worked for dinosaurs of the past that were far superior in service and 'experience' to your operation of today."

NOT POSSIBLE! read tweetybirds post. you are successful ONLY because of your superior customer service. It has NOTHING to do with the lowest cost (lowest wages) in the industry or the TV's. If you were truly that great, customer service wise, in the past, surely that company would still be going strong. Did you think at the time (back then at the dinosaur) that you had it all figured out? I guess that time you didn't. But you do this time huh?

"It is ashamed that we reach the level of grovelling that you have to blame the rest of the world for the wake up call you are getting with your concessions and reality check. It's business man and you better learn to roll with it or your heart will definitely explode. On second thought, maybe that wouldn't be a bad thing."

Wow, First the name calling from Jetblu employees, now one wishing for my personal death. Nice. Calling into question the business practices of your CEO (which he has demonstraded REPEATEDLY), and that's "classless" but calling names and hoping someone DIES is just fine? NUTTY! It's amazing how whinny people get when you merely tell them that they need to be paid better.

----------------
[/blockquote]
 

Jeff G

Member
Aug 20, 2002
65
0
[blockquote]
----------------
On 1/30/2003 2:04:04 PM Busdrvr wrote:

It's amazing how whinny people get when you merely tell them that they need to be paid better.

----------------
[/blockquote]

You know, it's funny, but sometimes people would rather be paid less to work for a solid company than get paid the moon at a defunct airline.

Besides, give it time. It's a three year old company. I imagine you expect that JetBlue should have started out with UAL's contract +1%, but I'm afraid the world doesn't work according to the ALPA pattern bargaining ideal. Pilots at JetBlue already make more than at any other national company, and at least one major. What more did you expect?

I'm not complaining about the pay. After all, I'm making second year scale and better off than any other second year pilot I can think of (and there are fewer of them all the time). Profit sharing last year was substantial. I expect the same for this year. Stock options are nice, but I don't plan to retire off of them; maybe I'll pay off a nice house with them someday. For retirement, I've got IRA's, a 401(k), my own investments, and 25 years to work on them. What else do I need? I know, with that attitude I'm dragging down the profession or something (//hatever), but then the last pilot group that "raised the standard" a significant amount helped put their company into chapter 11.

Gee, how can it be that such a poorly paid pilot can take good care of himself and his family, but a number of more highly paid pilots are losing their pensions, running scared, or are facing furlough or company failure? Guess that awesome salary doesn't fix as many problems as you thought. Treating your people right means a lot more than merely signing over huge checks, you see, and some of us Blue Koolaid drinkers notice the difference.
 

jbu320

Member
Aug 21, 2002
93
0
Visit site
Bus If nothing else you are tenacious. You have managed to turn this into a one man against all battle. No one on this link is agreeing with your BS. You are responding to your own propaganda. You have an attitude and you are not to be admired with your self misery and venomous attitude toward everyone. Sadly enough, I feel very sorry for you because of your personal misery and because of the situation you are in professionally.
I never claimed to know everything about this industry. I have seen lots come and go and have been on the rollercoaster ride along with the best and worst of them. You may never have experienced that or perhaps you would be speaking with a little more savvy and a lot less of your bellowing BS. I didn't end up where I am because I am any less capable or desirable than you. Quite frankly, I have never enjoyed going to work more.
No, JBLU is not perfect. No, I don't make what I have made in the past for the priviledge of having the big ALPA represent me and send me a magazine every month. Do I enjoy my job? You bet I do. It seems like you do not or you would not be so miserable and seek to vent on these poor underpaid little upstart pilots on this chat board who are so wet behind the ears and so blinded by the Blue-Aid, that they are totally unsafe and inept at what they do.
I think you would find yourself highly surprised at what JBLU CAs are making. This is not a money issue though. It has sunk to the level of personal attacks. I would never wish anyone to die, I was simply stating that you have gone a bit overboard on this one and maybe you need to sit back and have a beer.
Chill a bit. It's only life.
 

Busdrvr

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
2,217
0
[blockquote]
----------------
On 1/30/2003 2:26:08 PM Jeff G wrote:

"I'm not complaining about the pay. After all, I'm making second year scale and better off than any other second year pilot I can think of (and there are fewer of them all the time)."

Back in 1985, that was the rationale a few folks used at UAL. they got $75k first year pay, but you're ALPA, you know the rest of the story. It does not matter how long you've been there, you should make a certain amount to pilot an A320, PERIOD, otherwise, you are providing downward pressure on industry wages. If 2 years ago, AMR, DAL, and UAL paid it's capt $110 an hour, what do you think your messiah would be paying you?

"I know, with that attitude I'm dragging down the profession or something (//hatever), but then the last pilot group that "raised the standard" a significant amount helped put their company into chapter 11.'

Somebody has to be the highest paid. do you think it will ever be you? If everybody else undercut you, what do you think will happen at Jet Blue? what do you think AMR and NWA are telling it's pilots as we speak? I'll give you a hint. "We must match the wages at UAL to survive, and to thrive we must match JBlues wages" Is that what you want? Jet Blue wages for the rest of the industry? What happens to growth at jetblu then? Two year Capts? 10 year capts? You've been around long enough to know your big smile isn't what brings in the pax, it's the PRICE and the TV's.

"Gee, how can it be that such a poorly paid pilot can take good care of himself and his family, but a number of more highly paid pilots are losing their pensions, running scared, or are facing furlough or company failure?"


Even after distressed termination of the pension at U, they will STILL have a biger defined benefit pension plan. Are you really that proud that your three year old company has NO plan to offer you a defined benefit plan of ANY type?

"Guess that awesome salary doesn't fix as many problems as you thought. Treating your people right means a lot more than merely signing over huge checks, you see, and some of us Blue Koolaid drinkers notice the difference."

What else do they do? enlighten me please? Does Mr ADD give you backrubs at work? Under severe wage pressure from the bottom feeders, we are negotiatin new rates and benefits, please, so that we may negotiate all those wonderful perks you guys have trouble quantifying, please tell me what they are so that we may get them in exchange for 100K in W-2 pay. Is jetblue a better deal than an RJ outfit? absolutely, but I don't think you've ever experienced the way it is at DAL, AMR and yes even UAL.

----------------
[/blockquote]
 

Rhino

Senior
Aug 20, 2002
308
0
Bus, you turned down SWA to work for UAL. Probably a good decision at the time. It did work out well for SWA. Thanks again.

With the furloughs, what % of the UAL pilot force are scabs or 'special track' pilots? You have so much to proud of. Great job as employee-owners, BTW.
 

Vikedog64

Senior
Jan 29, 2003
256
0
Personally I think Jetblue has a great product that is why the majors are (at least DAL) trying to duplicate it. We all better face the music. The industry has changed and for the majors to survive, they better change with it. I think that DAL has a very good strategy and will do well in recapturing market share, with Skymiles, etc. I also think if "Song" goes well, you could see it expanded all across the system. Jetblue and SWA are very good at what they do(point to point.) But they can not be all things to all people. You still need hubs to move pax from Moline to LAX. The majors have to find a way to do it more efficiently. Just my 2 cents...
 

Positive Rate

Newbie
Nov 12, 2002
5
0
Bus Bus Bus...

You've been gone for a couple of days...maybe you really do have a job. Well your up to 627 posts since let's see...8/20/02. I think you might be below your average.

Time to get a life pal. You bitterness and imaturity is so very sad. I can understand your frustration by the situation a UAL. I really do hope things change for the better. Many fine people work at UAL and I hope that things do work out...I really do. However, blaming others for your woes is not going to fix it.

You've got a real chip on your shoulder and it's time to take responsibility for your own choices. Stop throwing rocks...your embarassing yourself.

PosRate