F/a's At Us Air Beware

[galleyguy4u2]

Dear Brothers and Sisters:

I am sure you have been following the TWA-AA transition. As you know their UNION or what I call an oganization have STAPLED all the TWA f/a's to the bottom of their seniority list.. The APFA does not understand TRADE UNIONISM. You can expect the same treatment if some of your f/a's or pilots are going with the potential purchase or aquisition.

APFA is a most hateful group of so called UNION members and they will not welcome you into the fold. Also note that AMR has not one x-TWA f/a on the property they managed to rid themselves of 4,200 TWA f/a's.

WE were not bankrupt...we complied with AMR to get rid of Carl Icahns cheap ticket agreements so AMR could aquire TWA, in return we were promised a fair and equitable intergration.

I hope that you can hold on to your assests and keep the BEAST <AMR-APFA-APA> away from your doors. AMR is not your WHITE KNIGHT...just go back and look at the AA/TWA boards.

When you start giving away vaulable assets you are headed for doom. Please do not give into the company. IN TRUE UNITY.....watch your backs with the AMR/APFA/APA...... Above all keep your scope clause at any cost.

 

[PITbull]

No intentions of giving away any scope or anything. Thanks for the "heads up". The more folks on here talk about acquisitions and ICT, the more I move further away from any inclination of facilitating any "business plan" that may contribute to our individual demise for the sake of Senior Exec. corporate wealth.

 

[Winglet]

I hate to break the news, but trade unionism as a viable force in this country is virtually dead. The American public at large and the politicians have killed it. Americans could care less if the things they buy are made by American workers anymore and I submit that nobody cares what nationality that crews the airlines are . . . . . just so long as the goods and tickets are cheap . . . . and it doesn't affect their job. If the Republicans win another 4 years in office . . . you watch, Cabotage and importing foreigners to work at ultra cheap wages and replace higher paid American workers is next. How do you get a labor shortage? Simply lower the wage to a point where an American can't afford to take it, then claim a labor shortage that a South American will take and live in squalor to do. A walk through Walmart, any furniture store, or even the Sears tool department, will tell you where we buy almost everything from now . . . . China.

The unions are in their death throws and you're seeing everyone trying to look out for ol' #1 for as long as possible. The AA employees saw the TWA deal eventually blowing up in their faces (just like the other acquisitions). Not saying a total staple of the flight attendants was the correct thing to do, but understandable given the history of poor outcomes with AMR's acquisitions and mergers.

The other point is that I don't believe that AMR, even if sincere about buying the shuttle slots, would want or accept employees and aircraft as well, so I think that's a moot point. If I were a UAL employee right now (with thousands on furlough as well), I'd be very fearful of a merger with another very ill airline. Scope? It's virtually dead as well. It's only worth something when you have leverage and the only leverage is shutting down the airline . . . . . which is something Siegle probably plans to do anyway. It would be just more convenient make the unions look like they "caused" it.

 

[PITbull]

I happen to agree with you in part.

Unions and union drives have lost momentum, because for at least the past decade and a half, the economy was robust and labor and managements for the most part, worked very well together in contract negotiations. Hard line, and radical actions were not necessary. Agreements were achieved through 3rd party mediation if there were empasses.

Unemployment is high now specifically in our industry, and with an economy that is soft, makes for very little leverage for unions, specifically, if you are not in Section 6 negotiations. THere can not be any job action if you are not in sec 6 . Therefore, only leverage is leafleting and picketing and protesting and media pressure. Anything that effects the stock price negatively can pressure managements to move on the "equitable/fairness" continum. However, if management's covert goal is to sell-off and airline in pieces, then any protesting efforts from labor will not make a difference

 

[jimntx]

Therefore, only leverage is leafleting and picketing and protesting and media pressure. Anything that effects the stock price negatively can pressure managements to move on the "equitable/fairness" continum. However, if management's covert goal is to sell-off and airline in pieces, then any protesting efforts from labor will not make a difference

And leaflets and informational pickets are no leverage at all. Do you really think those will affect the stock price and pressure mgt. into being reasonable?

Look at Southwest. Their flight attendants are probably the most liked in the industry by the traveling public. They have been doing informational pickets and leafleting for months now to let the public know about their contract stalemate over working conditions and pay.

Do you know of one single passenger who has booked elsewhere in support of the SW flight attendants? I live in Dallas and Houston which are two SW strongholds and I don't know of anyone. Have you seen Southwest's stock price dropping as a result of the pickets? I haven't.

Winglet is right. As long as they get a cheap ticket to go see grandma, the traveling public doesn't give a damn about the situation of airline employees. They all think we live these fabulous lives where we are jetting off to exotic vacation destinations four or five times a year for free!

Another case: Look at the recent disclosures about Wal-Mart forcing workers to clock out and then return to work (for free) so that they wouldn't qualify for overtime. And, making high school students work hours past the time that various state laws say they have to be let off. (My sister is a high school teacher. She can tell you of many cases of honor-level students falling asleep in class because their "part-time" job at Wal-Mart required that they work until 1 or 2 am on school nights setting up holiday displays--off the clock of course.)

Have you seen the Wal-Mart parking lot any less full? I went into a Wal-Mart at 1:30 am on the day after that story broke. (It was the only store open, and there was something I had to get.) The store was packed with the very sort of people that you would think would be the most outraged by the story--that it would be them or their relatives/friends/neighbors who were being exploited by Wal-Mart.

"The primary activity of the modern conservative is finding justifications for selfishness." John Kenneth Galbraith

 

[NVFlyer]

Oh come on. The “sky is falling" scare the unions have been peddling for years has finally lost its fizzle. Wal-Mart forcing employees to work without pay? Be real! Don’t believe everything you hear about from your union rep – they need you to keep paying your weekly dues. Pit you are so wrong about unemployment. 5% is high? Do you remember 1979? 12% unemployment was the norm for most of the 70's. 3% or 4% of the population is unemployable (elderly, disabled, college students, etc.). The world economy has changed and unfortunately the airline industry hasn't changed with it. I feel for all the folks that are in difficult positions because job losses in this business, but that’s not the norm for most of the country.

 

[Dea Certe]

I have always been proud that at US Air all flight attendant seniority integration has been done date of hire. In my opinion, it's the only fair way. And no, I'm not just some senior hag who wasn't affected by it. When US Air bought Trump Shuttle, all the flight attendants kept their Eastern date of hire. I believe most all of them were senior to me. To me, that's the spirit of brother/sisterhood and of being a true unionist. I'll put my seniority number where my mouth is.

This country's economy is changing rapidly. Just look at all the major corporations that are "out-sourcing" jobs to third world countries. Lou Dobbs of CNN has been doing stories on this every week and naming the American companies who are proudly shipping skilled jobs out of America to places like India and China. You'll notice our current administration is touting the economic recovery of our great nation as a "jobless recovery". That just baffles me no end. The privileged few in the upper classes are the only ones enjoying this so-called recovery.

Who's going to be left to pay taxes? Are our young men and women who are fighting for our American way of life at this very minute going to come home to a well-paying job, if they can find a job at all? Who's going to be left to pay down the mounting deficit being racked up? You can bet those companies who are exporting jobs will still enjoy all the tax breaks they can dig up. Meanwhile, honest, harding working Americans are being exported to the street. Unemployment benefits only last so long. While it may appear the jobless rate is dropping, in reality it isn't. People are just running out of unemployment benefits, giving up or taking jobs below their skill and education levels. Look around! Notice how many older people are working at jobs once held by school kids. People who have worked at honest labor their entire adult lives are now taking menial jobs just to get by because their retirements aren't enough to live on! Notice how many mom-and-pop stores are closing because they can't compete with the "Super Stores" like Home Depot and Wal Mart. It's a great shame that will be the legacy of Bush 2. And financial ruin not just for an unfortunate few individuals but for our country as a whole.

Corporate Greed knows no bounds. It's my opinion those corporations who send jobs overseas at a time when our country needs economic stability are betraying our country. They are far worse than that dumb kid who took up arms with the Taliban and is now serving a 25 year sentence in a Federal Prison. That kid was young and misguided but he was willing to fight for his principles. Corporate American is showing us a lack of patriotism while our nation tries to recover from 9-11 by taking jobs off-shore in the name of Profits. Who is going to be able to buy goods when we are all out of work?

Wal-Mart is famous for its unfair labor practices. Cities in northern California are banding together to keep Wal-Mart Super stores out of their communities. Kroeger's, whose grocery workers are locked out of their jobs at this very minute is citing the coming of Wal-Mart as the reason they must cut wages and benefits. If Kroeger's gets aways with this, who will be next? Delta Airlines already has its call centers in India as does America On Line.

This is not off-topic. Airline employees are among the first to feel the effects of this "new economy".

Perhaps if Bush gets his dream of drilling for oil in Alaska, he can hack off a few ice floes and call them "retirement villas". Thank God for Global warming, maybe we'll all have a place to go live in our Golden Years, if not sooner.

Sorry about the rant. My favorite hardware store, one that my parents patronized for years is closing its doors. Not because they are ready to retire and enjoy the fruits of their honest labor, but because they can't compete any longer. Same thing with my favorite dry cleaner, only he was lucky enough to be bought out by a major chain. I'll be damned before I drop off another uniform there! I might have to drive a bit further, but I'm going to support my local citizens as long as I have a uniform. It might not be that much longer, but at least I know I'm doing the right thing.

Dea, Proud to Be An American, Proud to Buy American!

 

[jimntx]

Oh come on. The “sky is falling" scare the unions have been peddling for years has finally lost its fizzle. Wal-Mart forcing employees to work without pay? Be real! Don’t believe everything you hear about from your union rep – they need you to keep paying your weekly dues. Pit you are so wrong about unemployment. 5% is high? Do you remember 1979? 12% unemployment was the norm for most of the 70's. 3% or 4% of the population is unemployable (elderly, disabled, college students, etc.). The world economy has changed and unfortunately the airline industry hasn't changed with it. I feel for all the folks that are in difficult positions because job losses in this business, but that’s not the norm for most of the country.

I don't know where you are getting your "facts". The Wal-Mart story did not come from a union rep, it came from reporting in numerous newspapers--including the New York Times, the Dallas Morning News, and the Houston Chronicle (all papers I read). The story broke when the results of an internal investigation by a Wal-Mart employee came to light. The employee's memo to management cited over 13,000 cases of "time clock" abuse that HE had found. He stated that he feared that there were many more.

Oh, and about that "12% for most of the 70's" statistic. I worked for the Texas Employment Commission (the official keeper of employment statistics in Texas) from 1972 until 1979. At no time during that period did the unemployment rate go above 6% within Texas. In fact, during most of the 70's in the Houston area, the unemployment rate ran less than 3%--the people who were unemployed were the unemployable: the uneducated, the unskilled, the seriously handicapped. I don't remember that the unemployment rate in other states was in double digits--at least not "for most of the 70's."

And, just because the "official" unemployment rate is dropping, that does NOT mean that more people are working. The dirty little secret about US government unemployment statistics has always been that people who have given up looking or are working at jobs way below their skills and education are not counted as unemployed. There was a story on one of the news magazine TV programs--like 60 minutes--about this issue. There are a LOT of people who have previously made middle class salaries who are working for minimum wage today just to pay the mortgage. The story included the case of a Computer Systems Manager in Maryland who was making $90k/yr before he was laid off. After a year of looking for another job, he ended up working for less than $10/hr taking tickets at a movie theater.

I don't know about the "norm" for most of the country, but MCI here in Dallas just laid off another 1500 people within the past week.

 

[BoeingBoy]

djlndc,

Perhaps the following excerpt will help - the link to the full article is at the bottom.

Jim

--------------------------------------------------
Most recently, on Jan. 18, The New York Times reported that Wal-Mart has been locking in late-shift workers for security reasons. That was preceded by news of an internal Wal-Mart audit that showed, in a single week, more than 1,300 instances of minors working at the chain's stores during school hours or later than labor laws permit, plus more than 60,000 instances of workers not taking scheduled breaks.

BACKLASH AHEAD? Those headlines followed last fall's federal investigation into Wal-Mart's use of a cleaning contractor that employed illegal immigrants. And all of that came on top of ongoing suits alleging that, at some stores, Wal-Mart has practiced sex discrimination and failed to pay required overtime (see BW, 10/6/03, "Is Wal-Mart Too Powerful?").
-------------------------------------------------

Article

 

[insp89]

BoeingBoy, You ask if WalMart is too powerful ? Sure they are.. The real question is WHY ? Because we have a GLOBALISTIC government that WANT'S it this way. Another problem is the middle class American, which could care LESS about WALLYWORLD's labor practices. We, the middle class, are too STUPID to question what is going on because we are under the impression that what WalMart is doing could not happen at OUR jobs. (WRONG IMPRESSION) Our government {NAFTA} is in the process of LOWERING American wages while RAISING our {NAFTA} partners workers wages. So, while we get up every morning FAT, DUMB & HAPPY, The movers and shakers are snickering to themselves............................ Another topic that I find humourous {If it wasn't so sad} Is the statement that "IT'S OK TO HAVE GUEST WORKERS IN THIS COUNTRY BECAUSE NOBODY ELSE WANTS THE JOB. The reason no one wants these jobs is because they can do better on WELFARE.....Do away with welfare for all ABLE BODIED AMERICANS ...

 

[BoeingBoy]

insp89,

At risk of getting too far off-topic, I was merely replying to djlndc who seemed to doubt that Wal-Mart would engage in the practices attribited to them.

Unfortunately, "globalization" is unavoidable - at least from a consumer standpoint. A casual walk through anyone's house will reveal many items manufactured outside the USA - electronics, clothes, etc. Even the average American car has at least components made in Mexico or Canada (I love how the auto manufacturers put "North American Content" on that little sticker rather than "US Content")

Not to say that "globalization" is good - it's just here.

Jim

 

[cavalier]

Everything will be fine. There is nothing to fear.

I LOVE YOU MAN

 

[PITbull]

A Profitable company is the ultimate leverage in ANY industry! Bonuses and Profit SHARING along with maximum flexibility in reducing costs during downturns that occur in EVERY industry.

That is the essence of the Nucor model. They pay relatively low base wages that are enhanced based on performance. Individual, workgroup and ultimately the entire company earn bonuses in this manner.

Part of the problem is that unions seek guarantees, in pay levels, job security, pensions and essentially hamstring a company from moving at the required speed of 21st century business. There are no guarantees in life, ask the TWA workers in this industry. Neither is hard work. Sacrifice must be coupled with fairness and this is were companies fail their employees. It is also where Nucor thrives.

I always enjoy PITbulls posts because in her world her members NEVER do anything wrong! Company is supposed to ignore a 12% absenteee rate and continue to act and pay like it's no big deal.

Yet the company whose enlghtened attitudes she touts would NEVER allow that rate to continue. The company incentive plan would turn the workers against the slacker because the slackers would cost the group bonus monies. But we never hear about that part of the Nucor equation because it goes against the villification of management and points the finger squarely where it belongs! Not on the overworked F/A who actually delivers great service but on the refuse that exists in EVERY work group. The compenstaion at enlightened companies takes care of those employees all by themselve because they can't afford to work there.

Bob,

Again, from your "inside source" as you call them, is wrong. I don't care if you heard it from your "I'll -give-you-a-perk" buddy, Dave. So Bob, what did management promise you for coming on here as a "shill" for them?

Attacking unions and giving us the "realities of life", since none of us have lived like you and possess your insightful knowledge of the universe only slides you down that hill further.

 

[PITbull]

Dea,

You've said it all in one post.

 

[Dea Certe]

Unions only exist because they are necessary. If Corporate America could be counted on to provide a living wage for those who do the work, the cogs that make the machine run, no one would join a union. What would be the point? Unions aren't perfect, but in my opinion this country is better off for having a voice that stands up for the working class. Unions are largely responsible for the once-thriving middle class that's made this country great. Is anyone who works for wages so naive as to believe Corporate America just donates decent wages and benefits to its employees out of the kindness of their collective hearts?

Henry Ford might have been the exception to the rule, but he wanted his workers to be able to afford his product; the automobile!

As for Wal-Mart, they just might be embracing some of those old fashioned American values of the owners of the Triangle Shirt Waist Factory. For those of you who don't know, the Triangle Shirt Waist Factory employed mostly immigrant women to make a popular in its time piece of womens wear known as the "Shirt Waist", a blouse-like affair. Since the Bosses of the factory were certain the employees would steal them blind given the chance, the doors were chained shut during business hours. At quitting time, the employees had to pass through an opening, in single file, while their purses were inspected for any company goods. It was just one of those realities of life.

One day, the factory caught fire. Since the employees who were on the upper floors couldn't get out of the chained doors, they died. Either they burned to death, died from smoke inhalation or because they jumped out of windows. 146 lives were lost that day, mostly women.

Unions haven't just fought for fair wages. They've spent time and efforts in bringing attention to safety and health issues. Flight attendant unions have fought to get safety equipment onboard, in changing the materials used in the interiors of aircraft to those who are less-toxic when burning. We've fought for better training in emergencies. The flying public is safer today because of the efforts of pilot, mechanic, ATC workers and flight attendant unions! Don't delude yourself for one minute thinking the government or Corporate America would have made those changes without the constant pressure of the unified voices of the workers.

Don't get the impression I'm some Luddite who doesn't appreciate the changing realities of the world. I'm well aware the airline business has changed forever. I want it to stay safe and affordable for the public but I also want it to be fair and worthwhile as a job. I believe that's possible. Management and Labor can find a way to meet those goals. The effort has to made with an open mind and in the spirit of mutual respect. Our survival depends on it.

Dea