F/a's At Us Air Beware
- Thread starter galleyguy4u2
- Start date
Unemployment in the airline industry is VERY high. 20%+ in some cases. In the entire US as a whole there is also a lot of UNDEREMPLOYMENT due to superrich managers outsourcing skilled jobs to places like India. I got news for ya. The sky IS FALLING and quickly. Unfortunately the American public as a whole is stupid and selfish, a trait that is being nurtured by the present powers in Washington.
PITbull
Veteran
Winglet,
Thanks for verifying the high unemployment in our Industry as well as our Country.
The current Bush Administration has not figured out a way to create livable wage jobs in our economy and keep jobs in the US.
Thanks for verifying the high unemployment in our Industry as well as our Country.
The current Bush Administration has not figured out a way to create livable wage jobs in our economy and keep jobs in the US.
Job Loss does not seem to know any boundaries..and PIT and the airline industry just happen to be the leading edge of this trend.PITbull said:
Domino Sugar company in Brooklyn N.Y shut down it's facility today 3,000 Jobs lost.
Ford Motor Company will furlough 1,000 workers from it's STL based plant.
Kodak Film will loose 15,000 workers world wide due to changes away from actual film to digital technology.
Textiles in the southern US are all but gone.
The list can go on and on....and yes we have a duty to elect people whom will not allow more American jobs to end up in Mexico , India , China or anywhere else only the idle rich can continue to prosper from.
The US is quickly becoming a country that produces very little , yet consumes everything. You need to be very mindfull of who's products you choose to purchase..ad whom you vote to represent your best long term interests , otherwise you yourself can become yet another blip on the business page in terms of jobs being lost for good.
Economists aknowledge a slight growth in the economy...yet it's not stimulating employment potential or growth....it is in fact increasing job losses. Eventually the reduced tax base and the burden of the un-employed ranks linked to a trillion dollar budget deficit can cripple our country as a world power. Think you are immune as much as you desire...the facts are speaking in long range negative terms for the average American.
The Economist had a piece on the topic of sending jobs offshore a few weeks ago.
As I recall an interesting claim that they cited was something along the lines of for every $1 in wages that goes offshore a new job worth $1.20 springs up in a different area.
As I recall an interesting claim that they cited was something along the lines of for every $1 in wages that goes offshore a new job worth $1.20 springs up in a different area.
skyangelnflight
Member
When NAFTA was created and passed, I cringed. All I could see, (over the din of noise swearing it was for the good of US economy), was jobs going out our borders, and no fees for bringing the products in.
Then you hear the illegals are only working jobs leagles don't want. My son does construction work, and he wants his work, but is watching it go to illegals.
We have always had Rockefellers it seems today we have more of them.
Then you hear the illegals are only working jobs leagles don't want. My son does construction work, and he wants his work, but is watching it go to illegals.
We have always had Rockefellers it seems today we have more of them.
PITbull
Veteran
AOG and Dea,
For the very reasons you point out above, is why I banter on here about unions and preserving "livable wage jobs". Unions are not perfect, but they are an element that creates a balance in our economy and endeavors to keep a middle class. You and I have the same "mind set", however, you express much more eloquent and with much forward thinking.
For this past year that I have been on these boards, I have seen many posters, employees and passengers alike that believe companies should prosper at all cost, no matter how it endevors to reach that success even if it means human devalueing by folks working and not being able to support their families or afford the health care benefits offered, or the employee spirit gets diminshed in the process. I have read some posts on here that say it is (ok) that the elitists in senior managment in these corporations reep all the benefits, after all they went to Harvard or Yale and have aspired to be senior execs, and if you don't like your "lot" that they dish out to you, than quit.
There is a higher mission that organized labor brings to the economy. The fundamental principles or premise of unions is to keep America working by perserving, protecting, and increasing jobs, along with having a voice in the work place with regard to wages, workrules, benefits, quality of life, and a safe working environement. It is not for the purpose of generating dues, like some on these boards insist because they have been programed to believe "union-bad", but because unions force the sharing of wealth to trickle down to the working class folks who are the foundation of any company.
Our current managment believe in "totalitarinism" and oppresses labor through threats and intimidation, thus controling and negatively impacting aspects of our professional as well as personal lives. Union busting, if left unchecked, impacts the economy and this sensitive balance by throwing it off kilter. Unfortunately, there are not enough laws to protect American workers and American jobs. As long as unemployment remains high, the economy will not grow and become robust. As long as their are no incentives for corporations to grow and stimulate American "livable" wage jobs, the economy will continue to stagnate and remain soft. And, as long as labor keeps "lowering the bar", we will continue to be our worst enemy.
Conversely, the more money the general population makes, the more they spend, the more this spending stimulates more production with more demand, yields prosperity.
I understand that coporations must stay competitive in their respective businesses. A company who achieves success and prosperity, has achieved this by having a paradigm that creates the demand for its product. That takes a mangagement team that is uniquely creative, inspiring, and motivational and understands what the public wants, needs, and demands. Takes a mangement team that does not sit on its duff and waits for employees to "save a company", or for its labor to look for ways to impoverish themselves in order for a company to compete.
As long as the Folks with the "mind set" like the ones we have in senior management ranks on this property permeate into other industries with the same schemes and tactics with using BK, liquidation threats, and union busting,, the more damange to our fragile economy, the middle class, and the poor become more poor, while the elitist get more wealthy. This has nothing to do with "class envy" but rather preserving the "balance".
PS: Dea, AFA Councils 89 CLT and 40 PIT have their elections forthcoming.... all positions open. I would like to see you run for AFA office. Also, the MEC VP position is open and will be filled at the MEC meeting Mid Feb. AFA is always looking for "talent".
For the very reasons you point out above, is why I banter on here about unions and preserving "livable wage jobs". Unions are not perfect, but they are an element that creates a balance in our economy and endeavors to keep a middle class. You and I have the same "mind set", however, you express much more eloquent and with much forward thinking.
For this past year that I have been on these boards, I have seen many posters, employees and passengers alike that believe companies should prosper at all cost, no matter how it endevors to reach that success even if it means human devalueing by folks working and not being able to support their families or afford the health care benefits offered, or the employee spirit gets diminshed in the process. I have read some posts on here that say it is (ok) that the elitists in senior managment in these corporations reep all the benefits, after all they went to Harvard or Yale and have aspired to be senior execs, and if you don't like your "lot" that they dish out to you, than quit.
There is a higher mission that organized labor brings to the economy. The fundamental principles or premise of unions is to keep America working by perserving, protecting, and increasing jobs, along with having a voice in the work place with regard to wages, workrules, benefits, quality of life, and a safe working environement. It is not for the purpose of generating dues, like some on these boards insist because they have been programed to believe "union-bad", but because unions force the sharing of wealth to trickle down to the working class folks who are the foundation of any company.
Our current managment believe in "totalitarinism" and oppresses labor through threats and intimidation, thus controling and negatively impacting aspects of our professional as well as personal lives. Union busting, if left unchecked, impacts the economy and this sensitive balance by throwing it off kilter. Unfortunately, there are not enough laws to protect American workers and American jobs. As long as unemployment remains high, the economy will not grow and become robust. As long as their are no incentives for corporations to grow and stimulate American "livable" wage jobs, the economy will continue to stagnate and remain soft. And, as long as labor keeps "lowering the bar", we will continue to be our worst enemy.
Conversely, the more money the general population makes, the more they spend, the more this spending stimulates more production with more demand, yields prosperity.
I understand that coporations must stay competitive in their respective businesses. A company who achieves success and prosperity, has achieved this by having a paradigm that creates the demand for its product. That takes a mangagement team that is uniquely creative, inspiring, and motivational and understands what the public wants, needs, and demands. Takes a mangement team that does not sit on its duff and waits for employees to "save a company", or for its labor to look for ways to impoverish themselves in order for a company to compete.
As long as the Folks with the "mind set" like the ones we have in senior management ranks on this property permeate into other industries with the same schemes and tactics with using BK, liquidation threats, and union busting,, the more damange to our fragile economy, the middle class, and the poor become more poor, while the elitist get more wealthy. This has nothing to do with "class envy" but rather preserving the "balance".
PS: Dea, AFA Councils 89 CLT and 40 PIT have their elections forthcoming.... all positions open. I would like to see you run for AFA office. Also, the MEC VP position is open and will be filled at the MEC meeting Mid Feb. AFA is always looking for "talent".
PB,
Thanks for the kind words...as well as your continued best efforts to preserve the balance. The preservation should be taking place in Washington D.C.....but both of the major parties in power have worked harder at allowing their friends to profit , instead of looking after the majority of the country ...and what would serve the greater good.
I have done a good deal of reading this evening ...and I see a common theme and cure being offered by the legacy carriers to compete.
NW is now asking for more concessions after absolutely "Chit-Hammering" their employee ranks after 9-11-01. They claim to need this in light of increasing employee costs , due to their Seniors remaining and 27 Million being paid out in severences. They also state the need to match US and UA's levels of compensation after they recieved employee concessions just to remain competative.
DL is in a heated battle over Pilot Concessions as well....I'm sure the other folks at DL will be approached in short order too....BK is not looming there , nor is it entirely out of the question at some point.
Here's the concern.....NW and DL need to lower their wage scale to match the benefits achieved by UA and US under Chapter 11 and the most generous of employee concessionary give-backs.
US Employee's are being approached yet again , to get our company in line with the wages or headcount levels at the LCC's.....so what's the end game here?
Every management group at every legacy carrier is playing off the lowered bar of the other guys....and We are heading toward an even lower tier on average wages or employee levels to match something that we are clearly not.
WN does pay "the average employee" better than what Joe or Jane Average at U makes. So how can we continue to operate as we do and compete on a level playing field?
Just for starters Colleen Barret at the #6 WN makes less than Dave Seigel at # 7 USAirways. I have said it before , and I shall say it again...If you draw a comparison?....make the comparison across the board for everyone in every position.
Thanks for the kind words...as well as your continued best efforts to preserve the balance. The preservation should be taking place in Washington D.C.....but both of the major parties in power have worked harder at allowing their friends to profit , instead of looking after the majority of the country ...and what would serve the greater good.
I have done a good deal of reading this evening ...and I see a common theme and cure being offered by the legacy carriers to compete.
NW is now asking for more concessions after absolutely "Chit-Hammering" their employee ranks after 9-11-01. They claim to need this in light of increasing employee costs , due to their Seniors remaining and 27 Million being paid out in severences. They also state the need to match US and UA's levels of compensation after they recieved employee concessions just to remain competative.
DL is in a heated battle over Pilot Concessions as well....I'm sure the other folks at DL will be approached in short order too....BK is not looming there , nor is it entirely out of the question at some point.
Here's the concern.....NW and DL need to lower their wage scale to match the benefits achieved by UA and US under Chapter 11 and the most generous of employee concessionary give-backs.
US Employee's are being approached yet again , to get our company in line with the wages or headcount levels at the LCC's.....so what's the end game here?
Every management group at every legacy carrier is playing off the lowered bar of the other guys....and We are heading toward an even lower tier on average wages or employee levels to match something that we are clearly not.
WN does pay "the average employee" better than what Joe or Jane Average at U makes. So how can we continue to operate as we do and compete on a level playing field?
Just for starters Colleen Barret at the #6 WN makes less than Dave Seigel at # 7 USAirways. I have said it before , and I shall say it again...If you draw a comparison?....make the comparison across the board for everyone in every position.
Dea Certe
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 889
- 0
Pitbull,
Thanks for the kind words and the interesting offer. I really like flying and would miss it terribly. I enjoy the customers and most of my fellow employees. It's good to hear what they have to say about various issues.
I fear that if I was elected to a union office, within six months one of two things would happen: a) management takes me out to the tarmac and has me shot, or B) my fellow officers take me out to the parking lot and have me shot. Not very appealing, either way!
Management and Labor have got to find a better way of doing business together. One thing I would like to see is more union input during the hiring process. Management on occasion has made some less than stellar choices that once hired, the union and membership are forced to handle. While 95% of the employees do their jobs well and don't cause problems, it's that 5% we spend too much time having to defend. It's that Duty of Fair Representation that can be a burden. I agree every member deserves the best representation possible, there are times when the union needs to clean its own house. We can't be credible at the negotiation table if we aren't credible on the line. And you know management loves to bring up those 5% at any opportunity.
Unions got a rather bad rap as being perceived as a haven for slackers and miscreants. While I know that's not true, I would like to see a much stronger Professional Standards/EAP element for the membership. To me, being a union member means I am the best of my profession. I take my job very seriously. Most of our fellow employees would agree they don't want to work with slackers or those very few who make our job harder when we have to clean up after them. We must be the very best at our jobs and give management no excuse to attempt to degrade or devalue us. We must take care of our own!
For instance, say someone calls in sick a lot. Let Professional Standards/EAP talk to them. Could be there's a situation of domestic violence the flight attendant is too ashamed to admit, so she calls in sick when she's too bruised to be seen. If our Professional Standards/EAP had more autonomy and could ensure confidentiality, that person could get the help she needs and that would be the end of the problem, for management, for the union and most importantly, for the member!
Here's another scenario: A member is just hard to get along with. No one wants to work with him/her. Customers are writing bad letters. If that person could be approached with empathy and the reason for such behavior becomes clear, the member could be directed to appropriate counseling. Just maybe we can give the company back a great employee or help this person find a better career choice. I see this as a positive for everyone, once again.
In order to do this successfully, management would have to stay out of it. Confidentially is absolutely sacred. Management could not require a detailed note from a doctor or other professional counselor. Just to know it's being taken care of by PS/EAP should be enough. I believe we would have a very high success ratio using this method.
I know we have a company EAP but I don't think anyone trusts it. Most flight attendants realize this EAP works for the company and is accountable to the company in the end.
Of course, I would have to demand all flight attendants are treated with respect in every contact. And that on the same hand, the flight attendants act and treat fellow employees at every level with respect as well.
I would like to know what you think about my ideas. And if you still think I could get elected to a union job. Frankly, the union doesn't pay enough! The aggravation would kill me, at any rate!
Dea
Thanks for the kind words and the interesting offer. I really like flying and would miss it terribly. I enjoy the customers and most of my fellow employees. It's good to hear what they have to say about various issues.
I fear that if I was elected to a union office, within six months one of two things would happen: a) management takes me out to the tarmac and has me shot, or B) my fellow officers take me out to the parking lot and have me shot. Not very appealing, either way!
Management and Labor have got to find a better way of doing business together. One thing I would like to see is more union input during the hiring process. Management on occasion has made some less than stellar choices that once hired, the union and membership are forced to handle. While 95% of the employees do their jobs well and don't cause problems, it's that 5% we spend too much time having to defend. It's that Duty of Fair Representation that can be a burden. I agree every member deserves the best representation possible, there are times when the union needs to clean its own house. We can't be credible at the negotiation table if we aren't credible on the line. And you know management loves to bring up those 5% at any opportunity.
Unions got a rather bad rap as being perceived as a haven for slackers and miscreants. While I know that's not true, I would like to see a much stronger Professional Standards/EAP element for the membership. To me, being a union member means I am the best of my profession. I take my job very seriously. Most of our fellow employees would agree they don't want to work with slackers or those very few who make our job harder when we have to clean up after them. We must be the very best at our jobs and give management no excuse to attempt to degrade or devalue us. We must take care of our own!
For instance, say someone calls in sick a lot. Let Professional Standards/EAP talk to them. Could be there's a situation of domestic violence the flight attendant is too ashamed to admit, so she calls in sick when she's too bruised to be seen. If our Professional Standards/EAP had more autonomy and could ensure confidentiality, that person could get the help she needs and that would be the end of the problem, for management, for the union and most importantly, for the member!
Here's another scenario: A member is just hard to get along with. No one wants to work with him/her. Customers are writing bad letters. If that person could be approached with empathy and the reason for such behavior becomes clear, the member could be directed to appropriate counseling. Just maybe we can give the company back a great employee or help this person find a better career choice. I see this as a positive for everyone, once again.
In order to do this successfully, management would have to stay out of it. Confidentially is absolutely sacred. Management could not require a detailed note from a doctor or other professional counselor. Just to know it's being taken care of by PS/EAP should be enough. I believe we would have a very high success ratio using this method.
I know we have a company EAP but I don't think anyone trusts it. Most flight attendants realize this EAP works for the company and is accountable to the company in the end.
Of course, I would have to demand all flight attendants are treated with respect in every contact. And that on the same hand, the flight attendants act and treat fellow employees at every level with respect as well.
I would like to know what you think about my ideas. And if you still think I could get elected to a union job. Frankly, the union doesn't pay enough! The aggravation would kill me, at any rate!
Dea
In the interests of intellectual honesty... it was the 12/11 issue and the actual number was $1.12 to $1.14 not $1.20.TomBascom said:
A pretty good article:
Relocating The Back Office
PITbull
Veteran
Dea,
I think your heart and mind is in the right place, and you have a talent for seeing both sides of the equation.
No employee should voluntarily go in to the Company's EAS (Employee Assistance Services). There is no assurance of confidentiality and NO assurance that the Agents of the company who act as behavioral health social workers whose only scope of practice in that role is to assess/ and refer, will do only that. The unions OFFER their own EAP (Employee Assistance Program) and there you will have confidentiality and your job will not be in jeopardy. If any emotional probem is assessed to be more complex, then they will be refered to the behavioral health vendor.
There is a case where a f/a recently was terminated who was a self-referral in company program of EAS. With that said, one should always be vigilant and cautious what you are signing when you take any medical leave of absence, any "letters of understanding" or anything you sign. If you are not sure how to sign either a) call your local union rep. first or B) sign and write "under protest", and then call your rep. Any "letters of understanding" should never be signed.
You are correct in your assessment of the membership...its damned if you do; and damed if you don't. But nonetheless, someone has to be called to do it.
As far as "slackers", there is "professional Standards" committee in each local, however, it is a volunteer position and you can't always pick those who have talent for this kind of thing. Its kind of a "learn as you go along" with very little training. Its more of a nurturing, good- listening- skills kinda of person. There is some training, but with the environment we have been in for two years, problems that arise, run much, much deeper than that, and folks don't have money to spend on co-pays for therapy 2 x per week or more to a vendor.
Also, its not a question of putiing in contracts that folks should be treated with respect. But rather, that is a "culture" (or should be). At present, words don't mean a thing....it's what folks do by their actions.
Reasonbility and acting rational is not fostered by this mangement. Most supervisors and managers have no authority or "leeway" to make those kinds of decisions. What is fostered by the "powers that be" is hardline is good and rewarded. It has been my experience that supervisors and managers are more worried about losing their jobs than the rank and file, and middle and upper management does not tolerate supervisors using judgement that may create an inconsistency to the "hardline", no mitigating circumstances allowed, to deviate from policy, specifically, the new ones that have been implemented.
I believe, you, Dea, really need to run for office.
I think your heart and mind is in the right place, and you have a talent for seeing both sides of the equation.
No employee should voluntarily go in to the Company's EAS (Employee Assistance Services). There is no assurance of confidentiality and NO assurance that the Agents of the company who act as behavioral health social workers whose only scope of practice in that role is to assess/ and refer, will do only that. The unions OFFER their own EAP (Employee Assistance Program) and there you will have confidentiality and your job will not be in jeopardy. If any emotional probem is assessed to be more complex, then they will be refered to the behavioral health vendor.
There is a case where a f/a recently was terminated who was a self-referral in company program of EAS. With that said, one should always be vigilant and cautious what you are signing when you take any medical leave of absence, any "letters of understanding" or anything you sign. If you are not sure how to sign either a) call your local union rep. first or B) sign and write "under protest", and then call your rep. Any "letters of understanding" should never be signed.
You are correct in your assessment of the membership...its damned if you do; and damed if you don't. But nonetheless, someone has to be called to do it.
As far as "slackers", there is "professional Standards" committee in each local, however, it is a volunteer position and you can't always pick those who have talent for this kind of thing. Its kind of a "learn as you go along" with very little training. Its more of a nurturing, good- listening- skills kinda of person. There is some training, but with the environment we have been in for two years, problems that arise, run much, much deeper than that, and folks don't have money to spend on co-pays for therapy 2 x per week or more to a vendor.
Also, its not a question of putiing in contracts that folks should be treated with respect. But rather, that is a "culture" (or should be). At present, words don't mean a thing....it's what folks do by their actions.
Reasonbility and acting rational is not fostered by this mangement. Most supervisors and managers have no authority or "leeway" to make those kinds of decisions. What is fostered by the "powers that be" is hardline is good and rewarded. It has been my experience that supervisors and managers are more worried about losing their jobs than the rank and file, and middle and upper management does not tolerate supervisors using judgement that may create an inconsistency to the "hardline", no mitigating circumstances allowed, to deviate from policy, specifically, the new ones that have been implemented.
I believe, you, Dea, really need to run for office.
I second that Dea. Judging by your posts, you are fair and level-headed, have the best interests of the employees, the profession, the company, and the industry in mind. You also have an understanding of broader world events and understand what is both good and bad at US Airways. You're positive relationship and attitude towards our customers and peers would serve everyone well.
I think one of the most telling examples of jobs going to foreign companies combined with total apathy from the American public is...And the envelope, please.AOG-N-IT said:
Levi jeans--the item that defined America to the rest of the world for many years--are no longer made in the U.S. Levi Strauss & Co closed its last 2 U.S. plants (one was in San Antonio, TX; I think the other was in Arizona) within the last month.
Joe Q. Public does not care until it is his job that goes buh-bye. I was trying to talk to a self-employed auto mechanic friend about this over the weekend. He didn't see that there was a problem with my job and 1,000's of others going overseas--particularly since he didn't see any way in heck that HIS job could be outsourced. I finally got through to him when I pointed out that none of us who use his services today would be able to afford him when we are working at McDonald's for $8/hr.
