"fair And Equitably" For All Affected Creditors

[diogenes]

PineyBob,

If you'll recollect, I have challenged U to offer the WN contract to its employees, work rules and all, since 1999.

I have also challenged anyone to point out where U's current agent contracts are more onerous than WN's - to date, no one has ( a little secret, just between us - I've seen both contracts, and there ain't any).

And, so long as any carrier operates a hub-and-spoke operation, it will be less efficient than WN. Right? Who decides the business model?

Which has lower costs - one fleet type, or multiple fleet types? Who makes that decision?

And lastly, you'll recollect I offered up the Benjamins for anyone who could demonstrate that the company took advantage of a cost -savings agreed to in the initial agent contract - cross - utilization. All the dead presidents are safe in my wallet.

You'll understand if I don't throw good money after bad.

 

[rotate]

US vs WN agent compensation comparison

Read this and see if it does anything for you. US vs WN agent info. This is why the agents are not going to willingly accept a $13.10/hr pay. This isnt even close to our competitors. B6 is $20/hr topout, FL is $16.75/hr and WN is going to be over $24 next year. Just how many markets are we competing against HP in vs these three carriers? Forget all the legacy carriers (who are between $19-22 range). There is a difference between competitive salaries and what is being proposed for the agent class. IMO there is NO comparison.

[post="179548"][/post]​

Wages for agents at US have been paid with a credit card for many years. The bill is now due and there ain't any money in the checking account.

It isn't fair, but it certainly is real.

No escape.

 

[Winglet]

Lakefield can't pay SW compensation because he needs the extra money to compensate for the bloated executive staff, incoherent route structrure, diverse aircraft inventory, years of farting around doing nothing, and STILL NO RATIONAL BUSINESS PLAN.

WHY WEREN'T FUNDAMENTAL BUSINESS CHANGES MADE 1-2 YEARS AGO???? WHY?? BECAUSE THERE IS NO PLAN OTHER THAN MANAGE AS USUAL AND HAVE THE EMPLOYEES PAY FOR IT.

 

[PITbull]

I have my future planned out very carefully since you asked and can survive anything that happens including severe blows. But if this is such a waste of energy as you imply to me and you have left for greener pastures (why did you include yourself in the less then 20 bunch if you have left?) why are you wasting your energy here? Just curious. All I am doing with this topic is educating the employees left what the law is pertaining to USAIR abrogating CBA's . I don't think for one minute think I am changing anything for me personally I am just pointing out the facts for those that do not know. Whats wrong with that as a current employee, former employee or non employee? I am not just preaching doom and gloom with this topic as you are just the facts.

[post="179568"][/post]​

And you have been quite informative. This information was shared with AFA MEC, AFA International,Labor Coalition and the membership.

 

[luvn737s]

This is the reality you and your employer face. LCC'a dictate the price now and the cost structure either gets lowered or the company in question gets liquidated.

[post="179732"][/post]​

Oh, really? How can WN affect the fare in Harrisburg? Pittsburgh? How does JB make the fare in ATL? HP is calling the shots in ROC? There are far more city pairs that LCC's do NOT operate on than those they do.

Airlines like US saw the 9/11 effect dwindling and diminshing their leverage over labor in the face of rising traffic. They needed a new crisis to fuel their crusade to eliminate labor's power. This isn't about survival for today. It's about using the political fulcrum to take leverage away from labor once and for all. ALPA is standing on the sidelines with feet of clay, forced to eat the bitter harvest of what they have sown with the regional airlines during the 80's and 90's. Management savors incremental victories. They better do it now while there is nothing to stop them. Who knows what tomarrow holds?

Bob look at the list of liquidated airlines: Midway, National, Air South, Kiwi, Pro Air, Jet Train, Legend, Eastwind. How many of them had excessively high labor costs?

 

[usairways_vote_NO]

Im certianly not defending management here. I think they are nothing short of fools. I dont think they are out to get you although I sometimes think they are out to get us customers. Im saying that when proposals are made a judge is going to make a decision on them. And the fact that the decision has to be "fair and equitable" will offer little if any protection to anyone but the creditors. Im not having the judge do anything. But management will likely, after some level of negotiation (who knows how serious) come to the judge with a proposed labor contract for various groups. And yes, then the judge will decide whether to do that. And his first thoughts will be to protect the creditors. As long as he feels he is doing that, and the offer isnt really out of line, it will be fair and equitable to him I think. And something that appears to reduce the labor cost to what is available to other carriers just will not seem like an egregious breech to him and he will accept it.

[post="179714"][/post]​

Why can't you get it? The "fairly and equitably" doesn't apply to what the judge thinks is fair and equitable to just one labor group by itself. It applies to making sure all groups including labor, management, creditors share equally and fairly, compared to each other, in any relief sought. In other words no group can alone or with other groups be asked to give more or less then any other group or groups.

And again the judge has no say at all in what permanent cuts are imposed by the company. The company can impose what it wants, if and only if, the judge has agreed to abrogation of the contracts and only in a amount that compares "fairly and equitably" to each and every creditor, management, labor group cuts.

 

[usairways_vote_NO]

And you have been quite informative. This information was shared with AFA MEC, AFA International,Labor Coalition and the membership.

[post="179771"][/post]​

Thanks for the kind words Pitbull I really appreciate it

 

[PITbull]

Virtually EVERY analyst has stated that the EXPLOSIVE GROWTH of LCC's, explosive growth and the current fuel costs are the primary reasons for all of the legacy carriers current state of affairs.

Since 9/11 LCC's have grown from 9% of the market to 26%, Legacy carriers can no longer pass on the costs of bloated management and hourly employees alike to unwitting ill informed customers. I addition given the LCC explosion business travelers are no longer compliant when it comes being gouged for fares.

Case in point. I had to change a ticket (partly refundable) which I had already paid $1,378.00. US wanted a $1004.00 Add Collect. Took ATA for $396. I don't put up with US's pricing Bull Excrement and niether do other business travelers. In addition to that debacle $972.00 Of the $1,378.00 was refundable. So that paid for my next 2 trips. This is how the LCC's totally undermine US's pricing power.

BTW, ATA has cleaners who do an EXCELLENT job and they make $7.50 to $10.00 per hour and their planes are cleaner than US. Thus disproving you get what you pay for.

[post="179779"][/post]​

Your post is utter bull....If ATA is so great then go have at it. At what point did your journey start and end? You must have booked later than 7 days advance.

Let me know that route and I'll look up the fares.

FYI...USAirways wants to transform into a LCC. They will have a difficult time placing a square into a circle...and customers will soon learn that they will pay for more eminities and service EVEN WHEN LABOR TAKES THEIR THIRD HIT.

Welcome to the transformation, Bob. All the carriers will soon be providing all the same for your low buck.

 

[cavalier]

I(why did you include yourself in the less then 20 bunch if you have left?) why are you wasting your energy here? Just curious.

[post="179568"][/post]​

PM me sometime and if you're in PIT I will buy you a beer and we can shoot the S-**it over the why, but it won't be here.....


GOOD Night...beddy bye

 

[GadgetFreak]

Why can't you get it? The "fairly and equitably" doesn't apply to what the judge thinks is fair and equitable to just one labor group by itself. It applies to making sure all groups including labor, management, creditors share equally and fairly, compared to each other, in any relief sought. In other words no group can alone or with other groups be asked to give more or less then any other group or groups.

And again the judge has no say at all in what permanent cuts are imposed by the company. The company can impose what it wants, if and only if, the judge has agreed to abrogation of the contracts and only in a amount that compares "fairly and equitably" to each and every creditor, management, labor group cuts.

[post="179797"][/post]​

I do get it. I think you are wrong. The law says that neither labor nor any other group can be made to bear an unfair burden of the cost. I get that. What you dont get is that I dont agree with how that may play out in reality. What we are disagreeing on are really 2 things. First, I think that the judge will primarily be looking to protect the creditors, which will make them tend to side in favor of any cost cutting. And secondly, I think that management can make whatever they propose in labor cost cuts look like they do not violate the "fairly and equitably" provisions of the law. And as cavalier did, I know people who were involved in the Wheeling Pittsburgh case. My father-in-law worked in one of their mills. The union got diddle. He was about at retirement age so he came out of it fine. He said the younger people basically got nothing. But as I said in my first post, I dont think the sort of protracted labor arguments we are discussing are going to happen. I hope Im wrong but I dont see this going very far. Something is going to push the wrong way and they are going to start selling the parts. I dont think all of the creditors are going to take this. Some are going to be very inclined to sell now rather than lose their money.

 

[RowUnderDCA]

GF-

Sometimes posters don't care that they are rediculously wrong. They just want to create a continuous foil upon which to attempt to influence the less informed. I think it is dillusional to think that's very effective way to influence people. Of course, Uvno is wrong in is conception of the issue and is wrong in his characterization of your position. He/she probably doesn't really care about truth.

 

[700UW]

Virtually EVERY analyst has stated that the EXPLOSIVE GROWTH of LCC's, explosive growth and the current fuel costs are the primary reasons for all of the legacy carriers current state of affairs.

Since 9/11 LCC's have grown from 9% of the market to 26%, Legacy carriers can no longer pass on the costs of bloated management and hourly employees alike to unwitting ill informed customers. I addition given the LCC explosion business travelers are no longer compliant when it comes being gouged for fares.

Case in point. I had to change a ticket (partly refundable) which I had already paid $1,378.00. US wanted a $1004.00 Add Collect. Took ATA for $396. I don't put up with US's pricing Bull Excrement and niether do other business travelers. In addition to that debacle $972.00 Of the $1,378.00 was refundable. So that paid for my next 2 trips. This is how the LCC's totally undermine US's pricing power.

BTW, ATA has cleaners who do an EXCELLENT job and they make $7.50 to $10.00 per hour and their planes are cleaner than US. Thus disproving you get what you pay for.

[post="179779"][/post]​

And ATA says it will run out of cash next year, are in concessionary talks with the AFA, just got concessions from thier pilots, are shopping assets to raise cash, talking about getting rid of one fleet type and eliminating regular passenger flights and go back to only charters and warned they will probably have to file bankruptcy.

So please explain to me how they are doing so well?

 

[BoeingBoy]

Two of my pet peeves in one thread....

The explosive growth of the LCC's: (and not picking on you, Bob. You just happened to be the one that mentioned it in this thread - it's a management mantra). Someone please tell me how much of the current LCC capacity wasn't already in the pipeline (in the form of aircraft orders) prior to 9-11. The answer is very little. Because the LCC's didn't cut back after 9-11, their growth seems "explosive" when compared to the legacy carriers who did cut back significantly after 9-11. It would be like the race between the tortoise and the hare. If the hare begins running backwards, is it creditible to claim that the tortoise has put on a burst of speed?

The CASM comparison: I'm not saying that CASM doesn't provide a useful yardstick - it does. But CASM is as much an efficience measure as it is a pure cost measure. A large part of the reason our CASM is higher than say LUV is that our business model isn't as efficient as theirs. As was pointed out by someone (sfb, I think), if you look at the average cost per employee, there is not as large a difference as there is in labor CASM. The remainder is a measure of the difference in efficiency of the business models. LUV pays their people well but uses them efficiently. U wants to pay their people poorly to offset using them efficiently. And if U ever can manage to use the people efficiently, management will reap a windfall because labor CASM will fall even further, making U not just competitive but lower cost than LUV. And guess who will get the bonuses...

Jim

 

[GadgetFreak]

Boeing Boy, this is why I have been talking about costs, not wages. I disagree about per employee costs being a good way to measure it however. It is the worst way I can imagine. Per person doesnt matter at all. It is the total cost of the labor to get the job done. While I wont disagree with you about the business model not being good, the labor contracts are part of that. Management may or may not have the brains to come up with good models. But any good model would have to have fewer employees doing the work to be beneficial. The work rules, how many planes of given size, whatever, cripple managements ability to increase efficiency. It can be presented in any number fo ways but the bottom line is that total amount of money going to labor has to decrease. People can get paid less or there can be fewer jobs at the same salaries and the employees work more days per week or whatever. But something has to give or the company will go away.

 

[KCFlyer]

BTW, ATA has cleaners who do an EXCELLENT job and they make $7.50 to $10.00 per hour and their planes are cleaner than US. Thus disproving you get what you pay for.

[post="179779"][/post]​

Bob may love you guys, but it looks like he thinks you ought to be making $7.50 an hour.