Heard from a FAA type that Freedom Air is in the final stages of completeing it''s certification process. Also heard from same person that MidAtlantic is just beginning theirs. Since Freedom is associated with Mesa, and is new, is it possible that the new RJ''s will go to it before MidAtlantic? Sounded to me that all they (Freedom) need is the paperwork to begin flying.
Freedom Air - RJ's
- Thread starter curious
- Start date
ITRADE
Veteran
[blockquote]
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On 9/20/2002 10:29:05 AM Lakeguy67 wrote:
Freedom is a scab outfit that orenstien is setting up to try and circumvent ALPA and I believe ALPA has taken legal action against mesa for it[/P]
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[/blockquote]
What striking pilots are they replacing?
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On 9/20/2002 10:29:05 AM Lakeguy67 wrote:
Freedom is a scab outfit that orenstien is setting up to try and circumvent ALPA and I believe ALPA has taken legal action against mesa for it[/P]
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[/blockquote]
What striking pilots are they replacing?
Is it true that there is an FAA reg that, to even APPLY for the FAA cert. to be an air carrier, you must already have the plane(s) in your possession? If MidAtlantic has no equipment yet, how will they get FAA certification to be a carrier until they actually take possession of their first bird? This is a simplified explanation, because air carrier certification is a lengthy process that can make buying a home seem as easy as going to the grocery store for milk.
Furloughedagain
Senior
Freedom Air will fly for America West.
It has 3 things against it, any of which would prevent it from flying as a US Airways Express carrier.
#1. Freedom flies (will fly) the CRJ700 and 900 -- 70 and 90 seats respectively. The US Airways pilots restructuring agreement requires that all small-jets greater than 50 passengers be flown only at MidAtlantic.
#2. Freedom is nonunion. The US Airways pilots restructuring agreement requires that all Jets4Jobs partners be union carriers.
#3. Freedom has not agreed to the terms of Jets4Jobs. The US Airways pilots restructuring agreement requires that any additional RJ flying (over and above the 70 currently operating) can only be awarded to carriers participating in the Jetsforjobs protocols.
It has 3 things against it, any of which would prevent it from flying as a US Airways Express carrier.
#1. Freedom flies (will fly) the CRJ700 and 900 -- 70 and 90 seats respectively. The US Airways pilots restructuring agreement requires that all small-jets greater than 50 passengers be flown only at MidAtlantic.
#2. Freedom is nonunion. The US Airways pilots restructuring agreement requires that all Jets4Jobs partners be union carriers.
#3. Freedom has not agreed to the terms of Jets4Jobs. The US Airways pilots restructuring agreement requires that any additional RJ flying (over and above the 70 currently operating) can only be awarded to carriers participating in the Jetsforjobs protocols.
ITRADE
Veteran
[P]I thought it was the other way around, cert first, then you get planes.[/P]
[P] [/P]
[P] [/P]
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #7
First, I think the FAA requires you to at least have the manuals of the acft you will fly to get certification. And I also believe that you have to have the acft on property to do prooving runs.
Second, How can Freedom Air fly for America West - they are ALPA also. Seems to me that they are going to be a different form of Mesa. However Mesa is a US Express and I believe they did sign a J4J.
Third, I don't think there are any striking pilots, just pilots looking for work.
Second, How can Freedom Air fly for America West - they are ALPA also. Seems to me that they are going to be a different form of Mesa. However Mesa is a US Express and I believe they did sign a J4J.
Third, I don't think there are any striking pilots, just pilots looking for work.
Amazing how the scab words gets tossed around so easily nowadays. Not every outfit HAS to represented by a union. The funny part now will be if Freedom pilots get better pay and benefits than those at Mesa or other similar operators. Unions are good at getting attention (and creating headaches for everyone involed) and collecting dues to pad the pockets of those in charge (IAM at US -- umm if you want a union go IN HOUSE!
ITRADE
Veteran
[blockquote]
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On 9/20/2002 12
12 PM dfw79 wrote:
Amazing how the scab words gets tossed around so easily nowadays. Not every outfit HAS to represented by a union. The funny part now will be if Freedom pilots get better pay and benefits than those at Mesa or other similar operators. Unions are good at getting attention (and creating headaches for everyone involed) and collecting dues to pad the pockets of those in charge (IAM at US -- umm if you want a union go IN HOUSE! ).
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[/blockquote]
Yah, those JetBlue pilots are actually making some pretty good coinage these days. Since they're non-union, the must be scabs. [img src=http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/sad2.gif border=0]
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On 9/20/2002 12
12 PM dfw79 wrote: Amazing how the scab words gets tossed around so easily nowadays. Not every outfit HAS to represented by a union. The funny part now will be if Freedom pilots get better pay and benefits than those at Mesa or other similar operators. Unions are good at getting attention (and creating headaches for everyone involed) and collecting dues to pad the pockets of those in charge (IAM at US -- umm if you want a union go IN HOUSE! ).
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[/blockquote]
Yah, those JetBlue pilots are actually making some pretty good coinage these days. Since they're non-union, the must be scabs. [img src=http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/sad2.gif border=0]
OldpropGuy
Advanced
- Aug 20, 2002
- 185
- 8
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[/blockquote]
What striking pilots are they replacing?
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[/blockquote]
Orenstien is using Freedom Air to threaten or whipsaw the Mesa pilots who are currently in contract negotiations. It's a given that the Mesa guys are at the bottom of the food chain as far as pay and benefits. I can't imagine how anyone would work under their existing contract! ALPA just gave them $2,000,000 to fight the cause.
This whipsawing by management of one pilot group against the other is the lowest form of warfare. Whichever group gives up the most gets the flying. This is the same tactic used by US Airways management against the three wholly owned regionals ALG, PDT & PSA to try to get them to accept the Jet’s for Jobs agreement. ALPA doesn’t seem too concerned with Dave’s strategy.
It would also appear that ALPA fully supports, with the J4J agreement, the predatory bargaining of one ALPA pilot group against the other. How can one pilot group (mainline) demand to replace the pilots at another group (wholly owneds?) This appears to be happening, as the RJ’s are to replace the turboprops.
Apparently ALPA is not too concerned with impending legal action concerning their duty of fair representation obligation to all members. Time will tell……
[/blockquote]
What striking pilots are they replacing?
----------------
[/blockquote]
Orenstien is using Freedom Air to threaten or whipsaw the Mesa pilots who are currently in contract negotiations. It's a given that the Mesa guys are at the bottom of the food chain as far as pay and benefits. I can't imagine how anyone would work under their existing contract! ALPA just gave them $2,000,000 to fight the cause.
This whipsawing by management of one pilot group against the other is the lowest form of warfare. Whichever group gives up the most gets the flying. This is the same tactic used by US Airways management against the three wholly owned regionals ALG, PDT & PSA to try to get them to accept the Jet’s for Jobs agreement. ALPA doesn’t seem too concerned with Dave’s strategy.
It would also appear that ALPA fully supports, with the J4J agreement, the predatory bargaining of one ALPA pilot group against the other. How can one pilot group (mainline) demand to replace the pilots at another group (wholly owneds?) This appears to be happening, as the RJ’s are to replace the turboprops.
Apparently ALPA is not too concerned with impending legal action concerning their duty of fair representation obligation to all members. Time will tell……
airlineorphan
Senior
- Aug 20, 2002
- 380
- 0
True, scab is tossed around lightly. A more precise term for what Freedom Air is doing can be found in the trucking industry: Double Breasting. This is a practice in which a holding company sets up a legally separate non-union entity and uses it to undermine an enterprise where the workers are organized in a union. This allows the holding entity to whipsaw (as an earlier poster correctly put it) the unionized workforce in order to extract concessions from them, and also to simply siphon work away from the unionized facility.
The approach some unions have is to try to stop the non-union facility from getting set up. In the short run, this makes some sense from a union standpoint, but it is hard to succeed. In the longer term, IMHO, it seems another union strategy should be to organize the new non-union facility, and build solidarity with the workers there instead of simply dismissing them as scabs.
Just my 2shares...
-Airlineorphan
The approach some unions have is to try to stop the non-union facility from getting set up. In the short run, this makes some sense from a union standpoint, but it is hard to succeed. In the longer term, IMHO, it seems another union strategy should be to organize the new non-union facility, and build solidarity with the workers there instead of simply dismissing them as scabs.
Just my 2shares...
-Airlineorphan
[P]Here is what mesa is all about:[/P]
[P] [/P]
[P][SPAN class=t]ALPA CCAir and Mesa Airlines Pilots to Conduct Informational Picketing In Charlotte on Sunday[/SPAN] [BR][SPAN class=tt]Friday September 20, 4:20 pm ET[/SPAN]
[P]
[DIV class=ar]WASHINGTON, Sept. 20 /PRNewswire/ -- Uniformed pilots of CCAir, Mesa Airlines, and Air Midwest will conduct informational picketing Sept. 22 at Charlotte Douglas International Airport to demonstrate their solidarity and to send Mesa Air Group management the message that it's time to stop playing games with their careers.
[P]CCAir, Mesa Airlines, and Air Midwest are wholly owned subsidiary carriers of Mesa Air Group and operate as US Airways Express carriers in Charlotte.
[P]The pilots of Mesa Airlines and Air Midwest, who work under the same contract, are in federally mediated contract negotiations seeking reasonable improvements in their pay, retirement, and working conditions.
[P]At CCAir, management continues to threaten to shut down the airline, and already more than 80 of the 135 pilots are furloughed. Mesa Air Group management has sought huge, unsubstantiated concessions from the CCAir pilots and has unfairly tried to blame the pilots for the airline's financial state.
[P]Although the pilots of Mesa Airlines and CCAir face some different challenges, we are all confronting a management that seems intent on holding down the wages and working conditions of all Mesa Air Group pilots, said Captain Andrew Hughes, chairman of the Mesa Airlines ALPA unit. We want to demonstrate to management our unity and resolve in improving the quality of life for all of the highly trained, professional pilots who have worked so hard to build Mesa Air Group into a profitable and growing company.
[P]Founded in 1931, ALPA is the world's oldest and largest pilot union, representing more than 66,000 pilots at 43 airlines in the U.S. and Canada, including approximately 1,200 Mesa Airlines pilots. Visit the ALPA Website at [A href=http://www.alpa.org/]http://www.alpa.org[/A] . [PRE] Picketing will be conducted as follows:
Sunday, Sept. 22, 2002
9 to 10:30 a.m.
Charlotte Douglas International Airport; Outside at Departures and at
Arrivals
[/PRE]
[P][/P][/DIV]
[P] [/P]
[P][SPAN class=t]ALPA CCAir and Mesa Airlines Pilots to Conduct Informational Picketing In Charlotte on Sunday[/SPAN] [BR][SPAN class=tt]Friday September 20, 4:20 pm ET[/SPAN]
[P]
[DIV class=ar]WASHINGTON, Sept. 20 /PRNewswire/ -- Uniformed pilots of CCAir, Mesa Airlines, and Air Midwest will conduct informational picketing Sept. 22 at Charlotte Douglas International Airport to demonstrate their solidarity and to send Mesa Air Group management the message that it's time to stop playing games with their careers.
[P]CCAir, Mesa Airlines, and Air Midwest are wholly owned subsidiary carriers of Mesa Air Group and operate as US Airways Express carriers in Charlotte.
[P]The pilots of Mesa Airlines and Air Midwest, who work under the same contract, are in federally mediated contract negotiations seeking reasonable improvements in their pay, retirement, and working conditions.
[P]At CCAir, management continues to threaten to shut down the airline, and already more than 80 of the 135 pilots are furloughed. Mesa Air Group management has sought huge, unsubstantiated concessions from the CCAir pilots and has unfairly tried to blame the pilots for the airline's financial state.
[P]Although the pilots of Mesa Airlines and CCAir face some different challenges, we are all confronting a management that seems intent on holding down the wages and working conditions of all Mesa Air Group pilots, said Captain Andrew Hughes, chairman of the Mesa Airlines ALPA unit. We want to demonstrate to management our unity and resolve in improving the quality of life for all of the highly trained, professional pilots who have worked so hard to build Mesa Air Group into a profitable and growing company.
[P]Founded in 1931, ALPA is the world's oldest and largest pilot union, representing more than 66,000 pilots at 43 airlines in the U.S. and Canada, including approximately 1,200 Mesa Airlines pilots. Visit the ALPA Website at [A href=http://www.alpa.org/]http://www.alpa.org[/A] . [PRE] Picketing will be conducted as follows:
Sunday, Sept. 22, 2002
9 to 10:30 a.m.
Charlotte Douglas International Airport; Outside at Departures and at
Arrivals
[/PRE]
[P][/P][/DIV]
OldpropGuy
Advanced
- Aug 20, 2002
- 185
- 8
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Here is what mesa is all about:
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At least they're starting something!
Here is what mesa is all about:
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At least they're starting something!
I understood that Freedon Air was formed for the following reasons:
1) To circumvent to scope language of US Airways. The scope clause does not allow any airline to fly as a US Airways Express if they fly any aircraft larger than 50 seats. This even applies if the aircraft are flown under codes-shares of airlines other than US Airways. If these 70 seaters were flown under the Mesa name then they could not continue as a US Airways Express carrier.
2) ALPA frowns upon regional carriers flying aircraft larger than 50 seats. Freedom Air will not need ALPA approval and will not be subject to the problems that CC-Air has had with D.W. not signing their TA.
It is my understanding that Freedom Air has started at the top of the Mesa seniority list for new hires. Pilots will not surrender their Mesa seniority number. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
1) To circumvent to scope language of US Airways. The scope clause does not allow any airline to fly as a US Airways Express if they fly any aircraft larger than 50 seats. This even applies if the aircraft are flown under codes-shares of airlines other than US Airways. If these 70 seaters were flown under the Mesa name then they could not continue as a US Airways Express carrier.
2) ALPA frowns upon regional carriers flying aircraft larger than 50 seats. Freedom Air will not need ALPA approval and will not be subject to the problems that CC-Air has had with D.W. not signing their TA.
It is my understanding that Freedom Air has started at the top of the Mesa seniority list for new hires. Pilots will not surrender their Mesa seniority number. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
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