Where is Chips response to all of this. U would have all the RJs,SJs or whatever they want to call them if U ALPA wasnt so dead set on J4J. Senority is everything.You come on property and you start with day one senority and day one pay.You upgrade as your senority allows. No super senority and no bypass to upgrade.
[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/2/2003 8:15:47 PM fr8tmastr wrote:
[P]I saw a memo dated to go into effect on Dec. 20 that we now allow as many jumpseaters as open seats in the back. I'm glad this has finally happened.[/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P][/P]Which airline(s) is this for. I havent seen anything about this other than for Mesa and Air Midwest (which we work in my station). Is mainline to be included or just some of the Express?
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/2/2003 8:15:47 PM fr8tmastr wrote:
[P]I saw a memo dated to go into effect on Dec. 20 that we now allow as many jumpseaters as open seats in the back. I'm glad this has finally happened.[/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P][/P]Which airline(s) is this for. I havent seen anything about this other than for Mesa and Air Midwest (which we work in my station). Is mainline to be included or just some of the Express?
A320 Driver
Veteran
[blockquote]
----------------
On 1/3/2003 1:15:17 PM ILS28R wrote:
Where is Chips response to all of this. U would have all the RJs,SJs or whatever they want to call them if U ALPA wasnt so dead set on J4J. Senority is everything.You come on property and you start with day one senority and day one pay.You upgrade as your senority allows. No super senority and no bypass to upgrade.
----------------
[/blockquote]
U ALPA is deadset against outsourcing our jobs and when we are forced to do it anyway, we want as many furloughees protected as possible. FAY, TRI, ISO, CRW, CHO, LYH and the list goes on and on. I flew 737s into all these stations and MANY more. Now they are all express. We only want what we had to begin with. When we lose it, we want to minimize the damage. What's so strange about that???
A320 Driver
----------------
On 1/3/2003 1:15:17 PM ILS28R wrote:
Where is Chips response to all of this. U would have all the RJs,SJs or whatever they want to call them if U ALPA wasnt so dead set on J4J. Senority is everything.You come on property and you start with day one senority and day one pay.You upgrade as your senority allows. No super senority and no bypass to upgrade.
----------------
[/blockquote]
U ALPA is deadset against outsourcing our jobs and when we are forced to do it anyway, we want as many furloughees protected as possible. FAY, TRI, ISO, CRW, CHO, LYH and the list goes on and on. I flew 737s into all these stations and MANY more. Now they are all express. We only want what we had to begin with. When we lose it, we want to minimize the damage. What's so strange about that???
A320 Driver
Unlimited jumpseats are available on all Mainline flights, PDT, ALG, and PSA. I don't know about Mesa and the rest.
Still kind of strange that there has been no response from U ALPA or Duane Woerth concerning Freedom.
Still kind of strange that there has been no response from U ALPA or Duane Woerth concerning Freedom.
What concerns me and currently makes me so outspoken is the Republic vs. Freedom issue. The charge is that Freedom is an alter ego created to get around the Mesa Airlines pilots negotiations when in reality Freedom was created to get around the USAir scope which would not let them operate 70 or 90 seat jets for America West. Wexford on the other hand started Republic specifically to get around the Chataque "no" vote on J4J. Freedom was started long before J4J was even an issue.
Freedom has made public its offer for J4J and to hire not 50%, but up to 100% of the pilots from the furloughed U group! That would be over 500 pilots with jobs... I just cannot believe that AAA MEC would rather have so many jobless rather than work for a carrier which D.W. has heartburn over.
I am curious how the threats against the furloughed U pilots who now fly for Freedom would stand up in court?
Freedom has made public its offer for J4J and to hire not 50%, but up to 100% of the pilots from the furloughed U group! That would be over 500 pilots with jobs... I just cannot believe that AAA MEC would rather have so many jobless rather than work for a carrier which D.W. has heartburn over.
I am curious how the threats against the furloughed U pilots who now fly for Freedom would stand up in court?
I can't believe how ALPA is treating the furloughed guys. They should be downright ashamed of how they are handling this situation.
When they try to hammer me for feeding my family, that is when I will call a lawyer and sue the crap out of them. I had no idea that Tony Soprano was running ALPA!
When they try to hammer me for feeding my family, that is when I will call a lawyer and sue the crap out of them. I had no idea that Tony Soprano was running ALPA!
That's just the point...ALPA is not handling this situation. It is wandering around looking for a way to save mainline jobs while not flushing its' principles down the loo.
A320, I absolutely expect your MEC to do all it can to preserve its' members jobs. I only ask OUR union ( That's YOURS and MINE) not to abandon so many of its fundamental beliefs in the process. What gets lost in all of this is that the regional partners of U are willing to give 100% to get you guys hired. We wil not, however, give any new hire pilot our seniority, nor the ability to be furloughed out of that seniority. For ALPA to advance a course of action that would do otherwise sets a dangerous precedent and only serves to embitter many pilot groups.
The need to feed ones family is first and foremost ( I have one also) but I find it hard to understand how anyone can take a job at Freedom, knowing ALPAs stand on it, and then wonder aloud why his union frowns upon such action. I wouldn't worry for long though. I am sure that ALPA will shortly find a way to dress up this Freedom pig and sell it as the greatest thing to hit the airlines since.....
A320, I absolutely expect your MEC to do all it can to preserve its' members jobs. I only ask OUR union ( That's YOURS and MINE) not to abandon so many of its fundamental beliefs in the process. What gets lost in all of this is that the regional partners of U are willing to give 100% to get you guys hired. We wil not, however, give any new hire pilot our seniority, nor the ability to be furloughed out of that seniority. For ALPA to advance a course of action that would do otherwise sets a dangerous precedent and only serves to embitter many pilot groups.
The need to feed ones family is first and foremost ( I have one also) but I find it hard to understand how anyone can take a job at Freedom, knowing ALPAs stand on it, and then wonder aloud why his union frowns upon such action. I wouldn't worry for long though. I am sure that ALPA will shortly find a way to dress up this Freedom pig and sell it as the greatest thing to hit the airlines since.....
airjackson - noone expects to get hired as anything but a new-hire for all the purposes you state.
but ALPA's stance on this doesn't make any sense. They are trying to protect the interests of the MESA pilots at the expense of the U pilots. If the MESA pilots wanted to, they could have bid over to Freedom with their DOH for bidding, longevity, and the like. They also have a go back to MESA clause. This has happened three times. Three times the bid has gone out and only @ 50 guys have switched over. The Freedom pilots are NOT adversarial towards the union. In fact, I believe that it wouldn't take much to get them to be union. But the stance that the U MEC is taking will not get them my vote when the time comes. They have and will continue to screw the U furloughees playing games with Ornstein because Woerth hates him so much.
The ALPA national folks are also trying to cover their tracks when it comes to the CCAir debacle. They sacrificed 32+ aviation careers because they wouldn't sign off on the contract that they agreed to.
but ALPA's stance on this doesn't make any sense. They are trying to protect the interests of the MESA pilots at the expense of the U pilots. If the MESA pilots wanted to, they could have bid over to Freedom with their DOH for bidding, longevity, and the like. They also have a go back to MESA clause. This has happened three times. Three times the bid has gone out and only @ 50 guys have switched over. The Freedom pilots are NOT adversarial towards the union. In fact, I believe that it wouldn't take much to get them to be union. But the stance that the U MEC is taking will not get them my vote when the time comes. They have and will continue to screw the U furloughees playing games with Ornstein because Woerth hates him so much.
The ALPA national folks are also trying to cover their tracks when it comes to the CCAir debacle. They sacrificed 32+ aviation careers because they wouldn't sign off on the contract that they agreed to.
Have you no shame?
Mesa has one of the worst contracts in the industry with respect to work rules and pay. Self-righteous ex-US pilots is the last thing we needed at Freedom, let alone our own defectors. Don't try to dress this up as some feed my family bull****, you didn't have the inclination nor the imperative to find a decent job outside aviation, let alone another aviation job. There are plenty of former Mesa pilots furloughed from majors who have more self-respect than to come join the feeding frenzy of scumbags who make it twice as difficult for us to put this contract to bed. This whole scenario reads right out of "Confessions of a Union Buster". The union isn't even asking for regional industry average payscales, as low as they are, to make it more palatable to the company. Freedom pay of $65/hour to fly a 700 at 5 years is what Skywest makes in the CRJ-200 now. The Freedom contract was supposed to be a "Skywest" contract. I guess Skywest gets 6 days off out of 28. Did you discuss that schedule in your little pilot union meeting? Your uniforms are so creative, too. Did Delta Burke help you with those? Oh, didn't you notice, they have a striking resemblance to Mesa uniforms! Which one are you, ex-U, Mitch Grace, Chuck Carnahan? Your name will live in ignominy. For all of you US Airways pilots out there that still have your dignity, all of the YV pilots appreciate your efforts to shove this genie back in the bottle. ALPA underestimated the RJ threat to mainline pilots when it first emerged. Air Canada pilots had it right from the start. Apparently it is too late to turn in that direction. ALPA should demand one carrier, one certificate, one seniority, one product in return for all these pay cuts and furloughs. As long as there are Express carriers of any kind, flying any turbine/large piston equipment, there will be whipsawing and management action against mainline quality of life and pay. Period. Demand something in return for your sacrifice! My job should exist at a mainline carrier, whatever that is anymore. I would have preferred to start on a SJ/RJ as a new-hire at a mainline carrier, with a one year upgrade to captain, as existed at Air Canada prior to 9/11. Instead, the SJ pilots are working on substandard contracts at poorly managed companies. The best anyone can hope for now is that the Regional ALPAs will drive payscales and conditions up to the baseline at pre-9/11 majors. Hopefully that will drive the "Express" carrier model into obsolescence once and for all. In the meantime, it would be quite helpful if ex-mainline pilots could sit tight until we sign a contract. Then, you might have a J4J job that resembles a fraction of what you had before, instead of six days off, etc. Anything coming from a "Freedom" pilot to the contrary is self-serving drivel.
Mesa has one of the worst contracts in the industry with respect to work rules and pay. Self-righteous ex-US pilots is the last thing we needed at Freedom, let alone our own defectors. Don't try to dress this up as some feed my family bull****, you didn't have the inclination nor the imperative to find a decent job outside aviation, let alone another aviation job. There are plenty of former Mesa pilots furloughed from majors who have more self-respect than to come join the feeding frenzy of scumbags who make it twice as difficult for us to put this contract to bed. This whole scenario reads right out of "Confessions of a Union Buster". The union isn't even asking for regional industry average payscales, as low as they are, to make it more palatable to the company. Freedom pay of $65/hour to fly a 700 at 5 years is what Skywest makes in the CRJ-200 now. The Freedom contract was supposed to be a "Skywest" contract. I guess Skywest gets 6 days off out of 28. Did you discuss that schedule in your little pilot union meeting? Your uniforms are so creative, too. Did Delta Burke help you with those? Oh, didn't you notice, they have a striking resemblance to Mesa uniforms! Which one are you, ex-U, Mitch Grace, Chuck Carnahan? Your name will live in ignominy. For all of you US Airways pilots out there that still have your dignity, all of the YV pilots appreciate your efforts to shove this genie back in the bottle. ALPA underestimated the RJ threat to mainline pilots when it first emerged. Air Canada pilots had it right from the start. Apparently it is too late to turn in that direction. ALPA should demand one carrier, one certificate, one seniority, one product in return for all these pay cuts and furloughs. As long as there are Express carriers of any kind, flying any turbine/large piston equipment, there will be whipsawing and management action against mainline quality of life and pay. Period. Demand something in return for your sacrifice! My job should exist at a mainline carrier, whatever that is anymore. I would have preferred to start on a SJ/RJ as a new-hire at a mainline carrier, with a one year upgrade to captain, as existed at Air Canada prior to 9/11. Instead, the SJ pilots are working on substandard contracts at poorly managed companies. The best anyone can hope for now is that the Regional ALPAs will drive payscales and conditions up to the baseline at pre-9/11 majors. Hopefully that will drive the "Express" carrier model into obsolescence once and for all. In the meantime, it would be quite helpful if ex-mainline pilots could sit tight until we sign a contract. Then, you might have a J4J job that resembles a fraction of what you had before, instead of six days off, etc. Anything coming from a "Freedom" pilot to the contrary is self-serving drivel.
[blockquote]
----------------
On 1/5/2003 2
03 AM Yankee Air Pirate wrote:
ALPA should demand one carrier, one certificate, one seniority, one product in return for all these pay cuts and furloughs.
You are correct...they should.
---
In the meantime, it would be quite helpful if ex-mainline pilots could sit tight until we sign a contract.
----
Did Mesa pilots do this for CCAir? It seems Mesa boys were eager enough to start flying CCAirs routes.
Or how about all the old 737 routes you guys now fly. How is that different?
---
pilot to the contrary is self-serving drivel.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Mesa pilots have their share of questionable ethics during all of this also.
In essence Freedom is doing the same thing to Mesa that Mesa is doing to Mainline. Outsourcing.
Also the whole CCAir mess, ALPA National is to blame for the shutdown...however it would not have been possible without Mesa pilots willingness to fly CCAirs routes! Fellow pilots who supposedly are on the same Senority list as the MESA pilots. What happened to your "combined list" If you were holding up to your high standards that you want everyone else to adhere to, the 20 plus year CCAir pilots should be flying as senior captains at MESA, and the junior mesa pilots should be furloughed. You have had a combined senority list for 3 or 4 years now. Why did you allow the CCAir guys to be furloughed out of senority? Mesa pilots need to be careful of the accusations that they throw out at other groups. Their targets may be a mirror of themselves.
No I am NOT a Freedom pilot or a CCAir pilot. Just asking questions that lots of people seem to not want to be asked!!
----------------
On 1/5/2003 2
03 AM Yankee Air Pirate wrote: ALPA should demand one carrier, one certificate, one seniority, one product in return for all these pay cuts and furloughs.
You are correct...they should.
---
In the meantime, it would be quite helpful if ex-mainline pilots could sit tight until we sign a contract.
----
Did Mesa pilots do this for CCAir? It seems Mesa boys were eager enough to start flying CCAirs routes.
Or how about all the old 737 routes you guys now fly. How is that different?
---
pilot to the contrary is self-serving drivel.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Mesa pilots have their share of questionable ethics during all of this also.
In essence Freedom is doing the same thing to Mesa that Mesa is doing to Mainline. Outsourcing.
Also the whole CCAir mess, ALPA National is to blame for the shutdown...however it would not have been possible without Mesa pilots willingness to fly CCAirs routes! Fellow pilots who supposedly are on the same Senority list as the MESA pilots. What happened to your "combined list" If you were holding up to your high standards that you want everyone else to adhere to, the 20 plus year CCAir pilots should be flying as senior captains at MESA, and the junior mesa pilots should be furloughed. You have had a combined senority list for 3 or 4 years now. Why did you allow the CCAir guys to be furloughed out of senority? Mesa pilots need to be careful of the accusations that they throw out at other groups. Their targets may be a mirror of themselves.
No I am NOT a Freedom pilot or a CCAir pilot. Just asking questions that lots of people seem to not want to be asked!!
[blockquote]
----------------
On 1/5/2003 11:33:41 AM autofixer wrote:
Meanwhile...managements sit back, prop their feet up on their desk, light another cigar and pour themselves a cool one and snicker as the unions self-destruct before their very eyes.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Exactly, There is not one MEC or pilot group involved in this mess that is without blame.
U's MEC helped create this mess by allowing massive outsourcing, and by ignoring the RJ issues for far too long. Mesa's MEC and pilots helped by doing the above mentioned items. The WO's have their own set of issues (Many the same as Mesa) with their willingness to fly outsourced routes.
ALPA in general has created a massive mess in which they have pitted themselves against themselves. All sides are right and all sides are wrong. With no way to correct the problems. Now UA's MEC is facing the very same problems and faring no better. I believe that ALPA is heading for a national meltdown and destruction due to their "Questionable" ethics that have been driven by each MEC trying to appear "Above reproach" while at the same time breaking every rule that the Union is supposed to stand for.
As you said, Management is having a field day, ALPA has become their own worst enemy.
----------------
On 1/5/2003 11:33:41 AM autofixer wrote:
Meanwhile...managements sit back, prop their feet up on their desk, light another cigar and pour themselves a cool one and snicker as the unions self-destruct before their very eyes.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Exactly, There is not one MEC or pilot group involved in this mess that is without blame.
U's MEC helped create this mess by allowing massive outsourcing, and by ignoring the RJ issues for far too long. Mesa's MEC and pilots helped by doing the above mentioned items. The WO's have their own set of issues (Many the same as Mesa) with their willingness to fly outsourced routes.
ALPA in general has created a massive mess in which they have pitted themselves against themselves. All sides are right and all sides are wrong. With no way to correct the problems. Now UA's MEC is facing the very same problems and faring no better. I believe that ALPA is heading for a national meltdown and destruction due to their "Questionable" ethics that have been driven by each MEC trying to appear "Above reproach" while at the same time breaking every rule that the Union is supposed to stand for.
As you said, Management is having a field day, ALPA has become their own worst enemy.
autofixer
Veteran
Meanwhile...managements sit back, prop their feet up on their desk, light another cigar and pour themselves a cool one and snicker as the unions self-destruct before their very eyes.
[blockquote]
----------------
On 1/5/2003 11:18:14 AM ONTHESTREET wrote:
[blockquote]
----------------
On 1/5/2003 203 AM Yankee Air Pirate wrote:
ALPA should demand one carrier, one certificate, one seniority, one product in return for all these pay cuts and furloughs.
You are correct...they should.
---
In the meantime, it would be quite helpful if ex-mainline pilots could sit tight until we sign a contract.
----
Did Mesa pilots do this for CCAir? It seems Mesa boys were eager enough to start flying CCAirs routes.
Or how about all the old 737 routes you guys now fly. How is that different?
---
pilot to the contrary is self-serving drivel.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Mesa pilots have their share of questionable ethics during all of this also.
In essence Freedom is doing the same thing to Mesa that Mesa is doing to Mainline. Outsourcing.
Also the whole CCAir mess, ALPA National is to blame for the shutdown...however it would not have been possible without Mesa pilots willingness to fly CCAirs routes! Fellow pilots who supposedly are on the same Senority list as the MESA pilots. What happened to your "combined list" If you were holding up to your high standards that you want everyone else to adhere to, the 20 plus year CCAir pilots should be flying as senior captains at MESA, and the junior mesa pilots should be furloughed. You have had a combined senority list for 3 or 4 years now. Why did you allow the CCAir guys to be furloughed out of senority? Mesa pilots need to be careful of the accusations that they throw out at other groups. Their targets may be a mirror of themselves.
No I am NOT a Freedom pilot or a CCAir pilot. Just asking questions that lots of people seem to not want to be asked!!
----------------
[/blockquote]
Hi ONTHESTREET,
You have some excellent points which on the surface seem damning for my previous post. Is it possible that under the RLA there wasn't much for YV pilots to do other than symbolically merge seniority lists with CCAir? Management still does not recognize the list, that is part of our current contract negotiations. The two ALPA groups stood together all the way through the process. If and when the contract is signed, the CCAir pilots left will come to the YV seniority. CCAir's contract was rejected by ALPA national for reasons I don't fully understand. One rumour was that the final agreement sent to DW was drawn up by YV lawyers from a bullet point agreement. According to the rumour, the language in the document didn't match the bullet points and was rejected. I don't know of anyone who celebrated taking their flying. Most of that flying was Jetstream, now Beech, or Dash flying, some of which was briefly flown by YV Dash 8s, probably flown now by Piedmont, another ALPA carrier. Certainly not flying that would move us in a direction most pilots want in terms of renumeration. If you have some pointers as to how things could have been done differently, please offer them. I would be more than glad to hear them.
The SJs were brought to the USAir operation from what was originally a Mesa stand alone operation at Fort Worth Meacham. Whether the FTW operation would have ever been successful is anyone's guess. It never had a chance because YV management at the time was depending on revenue from the United Express contract which was terminated mostly due to management negliegience. The aftershock of that event nearly sent YV into bankruptcy. The SJs were brought to US by Ornstein/Gangwal/Wolf with the acquiesence of the mainline pilots. Blaming the Ants for the dance of the Elephants is a little high-handed. Outsourcing begins and ends at the top. Mainline carriers are the only pilot groups that have the clout to make/change ALPA policy. If ALPA drew a line in the sand during this restructering dictating a one carrier/one seniority policy for any paycuts or concessions the Regionals would become a thing of the past. That hasn't happened so the only fight going on now is at the bottom of the pile. Mainline furloughees can make choices about whether they go to Freedom, particularly former Mesa pilots who left Mesa in search of greener pastures. Had I made a legal choice to do anything to harm CCAir pilots futures, then I would be just as culpable as a Freedom pilot. In the end, pilots at Freedom choose to help management undermine the meager contract Mesa ALPA is struggling to sign.
----------------
On 1/5/2003 11:18:14 AM ONTHESTREET wrote:
[blockquote]
----------------
On 1/5/2003 2
03 AM Yankee Air Pirate wrote: ALPA should demand one carrier, one certificate, one seniority, one product in return for all these pay cuts and furloughs.
You are correct...they should.
---
In the meantime, it would be quite helpful if ex-mainline pilots could sit tight until we sign a contract.
----
Did Mesa pilots do this for CCAir? It seems Mesa boys were eager enough to start flying CCAirs routes.
Or how about all the old 737 routes you guys now fly. How is that different?
---
pilot to the contrary is self-serving drivel.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Mesa pilots have their share of questionable ethics during all of this also.
In essence Freedom is doing the same thing to Mesa that Mesa is doing to Mainline. Outsourcing.
Also the whole CCAir mess, ALPA National is to blame for the shutdown...however it would not have been possible without Mesa pilots willingness to fly CCAirs routes! Fellow pilots who supposedly are on the same Senority list as the MESA pilots. What happened to your "combined list" If you were holding up to your high standards that you want everyone else to adhere to, the 20 plus year CCAir pilots should be flying as senior captains at MESA, and the junior mesa pilots should be furloughed. You have had a combined senority list for 3 or 4 years now. Why did you allow the CCAir guys to be furloughed out of senority? Mesa pilots need to be careful of the accusations that they throw out at other groups. Their targets may be a mirror of themselves.
No I am NOT a Freedom pilot or a CCAir pilot. Just asking questions that lots of people seem to not want to be asked!!
----------------
[/blockquote]
Hi ONTHESTREET,
You have some excellent points which on the surface seem damning for my previous post. Is it possible that under the RLA there wasn't much for YV pilots to do other than symbolically merge seniority lists with CCAir? Management still does not recognize the list, that is part of our current contract negotiations. The two ALPA groups stood together all the way through the process. If and when the contract is signed, the CCAir pilots left will come to the YV seniority. CCAir's contract was rejected by ALPA national for reasons I don't fully understand. One rumour was that the final agreement sent to DW was drawn up by YV lawyers from a bullet point agreement. According to the rumour, the language in the document didn't match the bullet points and was rejected. I don't know of anyone who celebrated taking their flying. Most of that flying was Jetstream, now Beech, or Dash flying, some of which was briefly flown by YV Dash 8s, probably flown now by Piedmont, another ALPA carrier. Certainly not flying that would move us in a direction most pilots want in terms of renumeration. If you have some pointers as to how things could have been done differently, please offer them. I would be more than glad to hear them.
The SJs were brought to the USAir operation from what was originally a Mesa stand alone operation at Fort Worth Meacham. Whether the FTW operation would have ever been successful is anyone's guess. It never had a chance because YV management at the time was depending on revenue from the United Express contract which was terminated mostly due to management negliegience. The aftershock of that event nearly sent YV into bankruptcy. The SJs were brought to US by Ornstein/Gangwal/Wolf with the acquiesence of the mainline pilots. Blaming the Ants for the dance of the Elephants is a little high-handed. Outsourcing begins and ends at the top. Mainline carriers are the only pilot groups that have the clout to make/change ALPA policy. If ALPA drew a line in the sand during this restructering dictating a one carrier/one seniority policy for any paycuts or concessions the Regionals would become a thing of the past. That hasn't happened so the only fight going on now is at the bottom of the pile. Mainline furloughees can make choices about whether they go to Freedom, particularly former Mesa pilots who left Mesa in search of greener pastures. Had I made a legal choice to do anything to harm CCAir pilots futures, then I would be just as culpable as a Freedom pilot. In the end, pilots at Freedom choose to help management undermine the meager contract Mesa ALPA is struggling to sign.
