Freedom Air

chelebell

Member
Aug 28, 2002
27
0
Can someone please tell me the deal with Freedom Air? When did this happen and what does it mean? Sorry, I am usually up with the news, but missed this one somewhere along the way![BR]Thank you!
 

CaptBud330

Senior
Aug 20, 2002
255
2
UA767FO...give me a break. First of all, your assumption that the majors will be calling back all those pilots is completely wrong. Aside from minimal growth and attrition, those unfortunate pilots will be on the beach for a LONG time.All the meaningful growth will be with the regionals as they assume mainline flying on less lucrative routes.
Second, it is very easy to pontificate when you have a job. With the dismal job market now, I wouldn't blame any pilot with a family to support for accepting a job with Freeedom. Prin****l is a marvelous ideal, but you sure can't eat it.
As a final comment, your saying once a scab always a scab? I guess ALPO doesn't share your feelings now that they have Continental on the payroll.
 

ua767fo

Senior
Aug 30, 2002
252
3
[blockquote]
----------------
On 11/9/2002 10:20:16 AM CaptBud330 wrote:

UA767FO...give me a break. First of all, your assumption that the majors will be calling back all those pilots is completely wrong. Aside from minimal growth and attrition, those unfortunate pilots will be on the beach for a LONG time.All the meaningful growth will be with the regionals as they assume mainline flying on less lucrative routes.
Second, it is very easy to pontificate when you have a job. With the dismal job market now, I wouldn't blame any pilot with a family to support for accepting a job with Freeedom. Prin****l is a marvelous ideal, but you sure can't eat it.
As a final comment, your saying once a scab always a scab? I guess ALPO doesn't share your feelings now that they have Continental on the payroll.

----------------
[/blockquote]
Interesting reply, wouldnt have expected anything else.

Your right, Prin****l is a marvelous ideal. Why throw it out the window, get down on your knees, beg for a job under any working condition and at anyone elses expense? Kind of like scabs do.

Personally, I'm happy that the Continental pilots are back in ALPA and actively promoted their coming back into the Association. First, they dont have alot of scabs left, and those who are, have been reidentified and put in the spotlight. Second, we need all airlines, large and small, paying professional wages and affording quality working conditions. This can only happen if we're all on the same sheet of music.

Lastly, I dont assume all pilots will be recalled, at any airline. I doubt that in 5 years, all of the top 10 names will still be flying under their logos. But the US Aviation infrastructure will remain in place, traffic will pick up, and sometime in the future, there will again be a shortage of pilots out there. I disagree with your assumption that all of the long term groath is in regionals. Actually, the pendulum may be swinging back the other way.

Btw, I was furloughed from USAir in '91....took quite a while to get another high quality job. Didn't sacrifice my principles, did what was necessary and right to put food on the table and pay the mortgage. I would say 'I hope those that go to freedom can live with themselves', then again, here at UAL I see scabs everyday in their own little world. They're still the greedy *******s padding their monthly paychecks while we have guys furloughed. Just like many of the AAA pilots did.

DENVER,CO
 

N513AU

Advanced
Aug 20, 2002
219
0
[blockquote]
----------------
On 11/9/2002 10:43:06 AM ua767fo wrote:

[blockquote]
----------------
On 11/9/2002 10:20:16 AM CaptBud330 wrote:

UA767FO...give me a break. First of all, your assumption that the majors will be calling back all those pilots is completely wrong. Aside from minimal growth and attrition, those unfortunate pilots will be on the beach for a LONG time.All the meaningful growth will be with the regionals as they assume mainline flying on less lucrative routes.
Second, it is very easy to pontificate when you have a job. With the dismal job market now, I wouldn't blame any pilot with a family to support for accepting a job with Freeedom. Prin****l is a marvelous ideal, but you sure can't eat it.
As a final comment, your saying once a scab always a scab? I guess ALPO doesn't share your feelings now that they have Continental on the payroll.

----------------
[/blockquote]
Interesting reply, wouldnt have expected anything else.

Your right, Prin****l is a marvelous ideal. Why throw it out the window, get down on your knees, beg for a job under any working condition and at anyone elses expense? Kind of like scabs do.

Personally, I'm happy that the Continental pilots are back in ALPA and actively promoted their coming back into the Association. First, they dont have alot of scabs left, and those who are, have been reidentified and put in the spotlight. Second, we need all airlines, large and small, paying professional wages and affording quality working conditions. This can only happen if we're all on the same sheet of music.

Lastly, I dont assume all pilots will be recalled, at any airline. I doubt that in 5 years, all of the top 10 names will still be flying under their logos. But the US Aviation infrastructure will remain in place, traffic will pick up, and sometime in the future, there will again be a shortage of pilots out there. I disagree with your assumption that all of the long term groath is in regionals. Actually, the pendulum may be swinging back the other way.

Btw, I was furloughed from USAir in '91....took quite a while to get another high quality job. Didn't sacrifice my principles, did what was necessary and right to put food on the table and pay the mortgage. I would say 'I hope those that go to freedom can live with themselves', then again, here at UAL I see scabs everyday in their own little world. They're still the greedy *******s padding their monthly paychecks while we have guys furloughed. Just like many of the AAA pilots did.

DENVER,CO
----------------
[/blockquote]

That's what the mechanic and related employees need to do as well. We need unionization everywhere - the biggest threat to our jobs IS NOT DAVE, but rather contract maintenance. As long as the option exists for a company to hire out the work at a lower cost (even if the quality stinks), the airline will, in their true plans, want to do that. That ends up putting downward wages on the rest of us. We need all mechanics and related, from commuters to contract, to mainline to DEMAND EQUAL PAY FOR EQUAL WORK. If you sign off an airplane or fix it, you are just as responsible as the guy who did it for more money than you.
 

N513AU

Advanced
Aug 20, 2002
219
0
[blockquote]
----------------
On 11/9/2002 10:43:06 AM ua767fo wrote:

[blockquote]
----------------
On 11/9/2002 10:20:16 AM CaptBud330 wrote:

UA767FO...give me a break. First of all, your assumption that the majors will be calling back all those pilots is completely wrong. Aside from minimal growth and attrition, those unfortunate pilots will be on the beach for a LONG time.All the meaningful growth will be with the regionals as they assume mainline flying on less lucrative routes.
Second, it is very easy to pontificate when you have a job. With the dismal job market now, I wouldn't blame any pilot with a family to support for accepting a job with Freeedom. Prin****l is a marvelous ideal, but you sure can't eat it.
As a final comment, your saying once a scab always a scab? I guess ALPO doesn't share your feelings now that they have Continental on the payroll.

----------------
[/blockquote]
Interesting reply, wouldnt have expected anything else.

Your right, Prin****l is a marvelous ideal. Why throw it out the window, get down on your knees, beg for a job under any working condition and at anyone elses expense? Kind of like scabs do.

Personally, I'm happy that the Continental pilots are back in ALPA and actively promoted their coming back into the Association. First, they dont have alot of scabs left, and those who are, have been reidentified and put in the spotlight. Second, we need all airlines, large and small, paying professional wages and affording quality working conditions. This can only happen if we're all on the same sheet of music.

Lastly, I dont assume all pilots will be recalled, at any airline. I doubt that in 5 years, all of the top 10 names will still be flying under their logos. But the US Aviation infrastructure will remain in place, traffic will pick up, and sometime in the future, there will again be a shortage of pilots out there. I disagree with your assumption that all of the long term groath is in regionals. Actually, the pendulum may be swinging back the other way.

Btw, I was furloughed from USAir in '91....took quite a while to get another high quality job. Didn't sacrifice my principles, did what was necessary and right to put food on the table and pay the mortgage. I would say 'I hope those that go to freedom can live with themselves', then again, here at UAL I see scabs everyday in their own little world. They're still the greedy *******s padding their monthly paychecks while we have guys furloughed. Just like many of the AAA pilots did.

DENVER,CO
----------------
[/blockquote]

That's what the mechanic and related employees need to do as well. We need unionization everywhere - the biggest threat to our jobs IS NOT DAVE, but rather contract maintenance. As long as the option exists for a company to hire out the work at a lower cost (even if the quality stinks), the airline will, in their true plans, want to do that. That ends up putting downward wages on the rest of us. We need all mechanics and related, from commuters to contract, to mainline to DEMAND EQUAL PAY FOR EQUAL WORK. If you sign off an airplane or fix it, you are just as responsible as the guy who did it for more money than you.
 

LDKIAM

Member
Oct 29, 2002
99
0
Freedom Air is an alter ego airline being set up my Mesa Airline, ie John Orenstein to try and break ALPA on his property.[BR][BR]
[P][FONT face=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica size=4]Are you considering applying for a job with Freedom Airlines?[/FONT][FONT face=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica size=2] If so, think again. ALPA urges all furloughed pilots to consider the facts and their own futures before applying for or accepting a job at Freedom Airlines. Working for Freedom Air is bad for the piloting profession and it’s a gamble for your own career.
[P]Accepting work with Freedom Airlines is detrimental to all Mesa Air Group pilots. ALPA’s position is that Freedom Airlines is an alter-ego, runaway shop carrier created by Mesa Air Group specifically to undermine the collective bargaining strength, working conditions, and career aspirations of Mesa Airlines pilots. Mesa Air Group is using Freedom Air to intimidate and threaten Mesa Airlines pilots with the transfer of work opportunities as a means of dictating pilot pay and working conditions. [/P]
[P]BACKGROUND [BR]
Under Ornstein’s control, Mesa Air Group operates the three wholly owned subsidiary carriers, Mesa Airlines, Air Midwest, and CCAir. The Mesa and Air Midwest pilots work under a single contract and a single pilot seniority list. In other words, Mesa and Air Midwest are a single pilot group. [/P]
[P]Mesa Air Group is attempting to establish Freedom Airlines as a non-union carrier operating 70- and 90-seat jets on a separate operating certificate. At the same time, the Mesa Airlines pilots are in contract negotiations, seeking much-needed improvements in their compensation, retirement, and working conditions. Contract negotiations have been stalled by management are going extremely slowly. In fact, ALPA has filed a lawsuit asking the federal court to compel management to bargain in good faith as outlined by the Railway Labor Act.[/P]
[P]When you are considering your next career move, consider the following facts:[/P]
[BLOCKQUOTE]
[DIR][FONT face=Symbol]
[P]· [/FONT]Freedom Airlines is a non-union airline. Freedom pilots will not have the protections and benefits of union representation or a union contract. Freedom pilots would be at-will employees subject to the whims of management’s decisions. Pilots would not have representation in disciplinary actions and would be subject to unilateral changes in their compensation, benefits, and working conditions.[/P][FONT face=Symbol]
[P]· [/FONT]The status of Freedom Airlines is subject to challenge in litigation brought by ALPA. The Association is alleging that Mesa Air Group’s use of Freedom Airlines to undermine the collective bargaining position of the Mesa pilots is a violation of the Railway Labor Act. In the ongoing lawsuit, ALPA is asking the federal court to enjoin Mesa Air Group from operating Freedom Airlines.[/P][FONT face=Symbol]
[P]· [/FONT]ALPA will also challenge Mesa Air Group’s ability to manage labor relations at Freedom Airlines separately from those of its other carriers. The National Mediation Board has already upheld the Association’s assertion that Mesa Airlines, Air Midwest, and CCAir are, in fact, a single carrier for collective bargaining purposes. If Freedom Airlines does begin operations, ALPA will seek a similar single-carrier ruling from the NMB as it applies to Freedom.[/P][/DIR][/BLOCKQUOTE][/FONT]
 

pitguy

Veteran
Aug 21, 2002
1,509
0
www.usaviation.com
All this 'Scab' talk reminds me of October 1992 when some pilots scabbed the mechanic and related.

I wonder if their 'payoff' was worth it.

What goes around comes around.
 

ua767fo

Senior
Aug 30, 2002
252
3
[blockquote]
----------------
On 11/9/2002 1:25:50 PM pitguy wrote:

All this 'Scab' talk reminds me of October 1992 when some pilots scabbed the mechanic and related.

[/blockquote]

Agreed!! The AAA MEC acted in a self serving ***** the mechanics fashion. I remember hearing an MEC officer say we're going to fly airplanes and really hurt the company to help the mechanics (paraphrased). Full pay to the end of the strike. Truely selfish.
 
OP
C

chelebell

Member
Aug 28, 2002
27
0
[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 11/9/2002 1:13:52 PM LDKIAM wrote:
[P]Freedom Air is an alter ego airline being set up my Mesa Airline, ie John Orenstein to try and break ALPA on his property.[BR][BR][BR][BR][FONT face='Verdana,' size=2 Helvetica" Arial,] Thank you for your response. No, I am not a pilot and no, I would not be looking for a job with Freedom Air. That was just the first time I have heard of them.....[BR]Again, Thank you for responding. May God Bless you as we deal with a very difficult time. [BR]Sincerely,[BR]Chelebell[/FONT][/P][/BLOCKQUOTE]
 
C

chipmunn

Guest
MEC CODE-A-PHONE UPDATE - November 7, 2002

This is Roy Freundlich with a US Airways MEC update for Thursday, November 7:

The MEC reconvened its special meeting today in Pittsburgh and received a report from the Negotiating Committee in both open and closed sessions.

The MEC passed a resolution stating that it has determined that obtaining additional Small Jets on an expedited basis would be beneficial in generating more revenue for US Airways as well as in the creation of additional job opportunities for US Airways pilots who wish to parti****te in the jets for jobs program.

The resolution authorizes the Negotiating Committee to engage in negotiations with the Company to discuss modification of Section 1 of the Contract and the Restructuring Agreement in order to expedite the placement of a specific number of additional Small Jets at affiliate carriers. The negotiations will include appropriate restrictions to protect the startup of MidAtlantic Airways and to assure job opportunities for US Airways pilots; and, in connection with any small jet relief, the Negotiating Committee will seek relevant job terms consistent with the MidAtlantic code-sharing authority contained in the Restructuring Agreement.

The MEC also unanimously passed a resolution directing the Negotiating Committee and professional advisors to meet with the Company to obtain, explore and analyze the relevant facts regarding the Company’s request for additional relief, including issues as to need, amount, form and duration of relief and returns. The Negotiating Committee and professional advisors will complete this analysis and report back to the MEC with the results of this investigation and recommendations for action. After the MEC receives the report, it will make a determination whether the Negotiating Committee should engage in negotiations with management on other issues.

Chip comments: The discussion on this board regarding Freedom Air is misleading. Freedom Air is a subsidiary of Mesa Air Group and was started by Jonathan Ornstein because in his words, the US Airways ALPA scope clause regarding 69-seat aircraft prevented all Mesa US Airways RJ flying if Mesa operated 70 seat RJs.

Regardless if they were turboprop or turbojet/fan aircraft, Mesa could not do any US Airways Express flying if it operated 70-seaters, thus Freedom Air was formed as a separate company. Thus, the Freedom Air start-up permitted Mesa Air Group to operate 70-seaters for HP with Freedom Air and 32 50-seaters for US Airways Group.

This contract provision was created years ago to protect F-28 flying and has not been changed, yet. However, on Thursday the ALPA MEC authorized the Negotiating Committee to begin expidited discussions with the company to resolve this issue. The 69-seat RJ clause, J4J inclusion, CCAir, and Freedom issues are now being disucssed by US Airways, Mesa, US Airways ALPA, and Mesa ALPA, per the MEC resolution above.

In my opinion, we will soon see an acceptable agreement to all parties with a change to the US Airways ALPA 69-seat scope agreement, J4J approved, Freedom Air merged into Mesa, and a specific number affiliate carrier 70-seat RJ authorization.

The specific number of affilaite carrier RJ expansion will be to permit 2003 RJ deployment, meet the conditions of the ATSB Business Plan, and to promote/ensure MDA start-up.

Chip