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Funny story

ThirdSeatHero said:
Ah what is it they say...

"Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery"

Glad to see I got your attention. :lol:
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OK - good one, you've got me there 😀

But - can you, or somebody else show me the data where a unionized mechanic has more skill(s) than a scab? Give me examples, numbers & statistics (costs, time, etc.) and spare me the stories how it is wrong to cross a picket line, the typical union BS, etc. Put aside personal feelings and show / explain how a union mechanic has more skill(s) vs. non-union. I know PTO loves to stir the pot on the NWA board and people call him on it but why is it OK for jenny@nw to start a thread with the same BS?
 
FrugalFlyerv2.0 said:
OK - good one, you've got me there 😀

But - can you, or somebody else show me the data where a unionized mechanic has more skill(s) than a scab? Give me examples, numbers & statistics (costs, time, etc.) and spare me the stories how it is wrong to cross a picket line, the typical union BS, etc. Put aside personal feelings and show / explain how a union mechanic has more skill(s) vs. non-union. I know PTO loves to stir the pot on the NWA board and people call him on it but why is it OK for jenny@nw to start a thread with the same BS?
Click to expand...

Without "specific" numbers, I doubt you'll let me play the "common sense card" but I'm going to.For example....

When NWA went on strike, the AMTs that knew those planes walked, and initialy all of them walked. Now there very well may be qualified AMTs coming from the nearby OSVs but as good as they might be, they don't know those planes as well as the AMTs that walked. Additionaly, moving from heavier maintenance work to the line enviorment isn't something you pick up right away. When I worked at UAL, I started in heavy overhaul, when I transitioned to the line, I was working on the very same aircraft, so it should be easy right? Wrong. The line enviorment is totaly different, and I had the benefit of AMTs who'd been there for years, to help. In NWA case, they were all new, and while there may have been no accidents there were certainly a whole lot more incidents, search back through the NWA threads for that period and read a few for yourself. It isn't necessarily a union vs scab issue. The ones that were there first had the institutional knowledge, and the personal synergies that made the operation run better, its as simple as that.

If you change the name to Delta and do the same thing, the results would play out the same. The NWA mechanics were better because they had the experience and the knowledge, they just happened to be union.
 
ThirdSeatHero said:
Without "specific" numbers, I doubt you'll let me play the "common sense card" but I'm going to.For example....

When NWA went on strike, the AMTs that knew those planes walked, and initialy all of them walked. Now there very well may be qualified AMTs coming from the nearby OSVs but as good as they might be, they don't know those planes as well as the AMTs that walked. Additionaly, moving from heavier maintenance work to the line enviorment isn't something you pick up right away. When I worked at UAL, I started in heavy overhaul, when I transitioned to the line, I was working on the very same aircraft, so it should be easy right? Wrong. The line enviorment is totaly different, and I had the benefit of AMTs who'd been there for years, to help. In NWA case, they were all new, and while there may have been no accidents there were certainly a whole lot more incidents, search back through the NWA threads for that period and read a few for yourself. It isn't necessarily a union vs scab issue. The ones that were there first had the institutional knowledge, and the personal synergies that made the operation run better, its as simple as that.

If you change the name to Delta and do the same thing, the results would play out the same. The NWA mechanics were better because they had the experience and the knowledge, they just happened to be union.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your common sense reply.

I would not have thought that coming to work 'line' from 'heavy' maintenance would be a difficult transition - except for the nice, cool, crisp, winter weather you're exposed to in DTW and MSP. Why isn't a A320 parked at a gate the "same" as a A320 parked in a hanger? (Sorry if this is sounds like a stupid question - the only difference I see is that at the gate you may be pressured to work faster?).

Ofcourse NW had cancelations and their on-time performance sucked initially as the newbie scabs familiarized themselves with their new job sites - I think that was expected.

What I would like to see, is the data for how many times NW flights were diverted, cancelled, had incidents, etc. due to maintanance issues. What was the number of "incidents" say per 10000 flights with scabs maintaining the planes vs. number of "incidents" per 10000 flights with union mechanics maintaining the planes?

I'm skeptical that there is a significant difference. IMHO when a work group goes on strike at an airline like NW, the media will report & cover 'incidents' whereas during labor peace there are numerous emergency landings, etc. that are ignored by the press.
 
PlayTheOdds said:
:lol: :lol: That's real cute coming from a disgruntled F/A such as yourself.

weekends, concessions and unhappiness... brought to you by the labor movement.

I think we should scratch weekends off the list. What do you think?
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I dunno. I'm senior enough to hold weekends (or any days) off so ??? :blink: But we aren't just talking about weekends, but days we have off. Nice try master-baiter.

FrugalFlyerv2.0 said:
Gee, and I supposse a UNIONIZED airline worker (mechanic, FA, pilot, etc.) have never, would have never, EVER, done anything similar or stupid.
Good grief - move on with your life. Get over it. All that posts like this do is start a pissing contest between PTO and union-lovers. :down:
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so why are you getting jealous and making this into a Ménage à Trois?
 
FrugalFlyerv2.0 said:
Thanks for your common sense reply.

I would not have thought that coming to work 'line' from 'heavy' maintenance would be a difficult transition - except for the nice, cool, crisp, winter weather you're exposed to in DTW and MSP. Why isn't a A320 parked at a gate the "same" as a A320 parked in a hanger? (Sorry if this is sounds like a stupid question - the only difference I see is that at the gate you may be pressured to work faster?).

Ofcourse NW had cancelations and their on-time performance sucked initially as the newbie scabs familiarized themselves with their new job sites - I think that was expected.

What I would like to see, is the data for how many times NW flights were diverted, cancelled, had incidents, etc. due to maintanance issues. What was the number of "incidents" say per 10000 flights with scabs maintaining the planes vs. number of "incidents" per 10000 flights with union mechanics maintaining the planes?

I'm skeptical that there is a significant difference. IMHO when a work group goes on strike at an airline like NW, the media will report & cover 'incidents' whereas during labor peace there are numerous emergency landings, etc. that are ignored by the press.
Click to expand...
the nbrs of emergency lanings shot thru the roof as it occurred during the strike. The nbr of maintaince related delays from that peroid is off the wall compare to the union folks that did the same job prior to the strike the nbr of emergency landings and maintaince delays were not as high. that is the stark contrast.
 
robbedagain said:
the nbrs of emergency lanings shot thru the roof as it occurred during the strike. The nbr of maintaince related delays from that peroid is off the wall compare to the union folks that did the same job prior to the strike the nbr of emergency landings and maintaince delays were not as high. that is the stark contrast.
Click to expand...

Are you sure that the media was just not reporting the NW incidents (more often) because it was focused on the NW mechanics strike? I'm curious to see the actual/official numbers (not just the number of media reports during the strike).


jenny@nw said:
so why are you getting jealous and making this into a Ménage à Trois?
Click to expand...
I didn't know scabs turn you on so much? I'll leave you & PTO alone. 😀
 
FrugalFlyerv2.0 said:
I would not have thought that coming to work 'line' from 'heavy' maintenance would be a difficult transition - except for the nice, cool, crisp, winter weather you're exposed to in DTW and MSP. Why isn't a A320 parked at a gate the "same" as a A320 parked in a hanger? (Sorry if this is sounds like a stupid question - the only difference I see is that at the gate you may be pressured to work faster?).
Click to expand...

No, that would be reaching...attempting to extrapolate on what you think you know. There is a major difference between line and overhaul. The main one being system knowledge, A/c systems. It takes years ( and years ) to become knowledgeable on them, to the degree you can troubleshoot quickly and effectively.

If you change the name to Delta and do the same thing, the results would play out the same. The NWA mechanics were better because they had the experience and the knowledge, they just happened to be union.

As TSH so astutely pointed out, the Original NWA mechanics were better because of their experience...they just happened to be union. To make this a union vs non-union argument is just setting up a strawman to knock down, as I believe you were and are attempting to do. That NWA had to lower the bar to attract the heretofore unemployable dregs of the industry elucidates the point even more. They even offered free tools: Any AMT with even moderate experience should have at least 2 or 3K worth of personal tools over the years.
 
High Iron said:
No, that would be reaching...attempting to extrapolate on what you think you know. There is a major difference between line and overhaul. The main one being system knowledge, A/c systems. It takes years ( and years ) to become knowledgeable on them, to the degree you can troubleshoot quickly and effectively.

If you change the name to Delta and do the same thing, the results would play out the same. The NWA mechanics were better because they had the experience and the knowledge, they just happened to be union.

As TSH so astutely pointed out, the Original NWA mechanics were better because of their experience...they just happened to be union. To make this a union vs non-union argument is just setting up a strawman to knock down, as I believe you were and are attempting to do. That NWA had to lower the bar to attract the heretofore unemployable dregs of the industry elucidates the point even more. They even offered free tools: Any AMT with even moderate experience should have at least 2 or 3K worth of personal tools over the years.
Click to expand...
also dont forget that nwa reduced both the fleet and operation by quite a large margin probably to make it easier for said scabs to just scrape by.
 
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