Good Ole Bob

[Birdman]

Couple of key points, all those items you cite as AA providing may be true however they offer it to less than half the people AA employs. So they use a simliar pie but make the slices bigger for fewer people. Since UA, US, DL all have less people where did their jobs go? To the outsourcers who offer lower than AA compensation. UA facillities in SFO are Engine and Component overhaul only with the majority of high labor hour content C and D going to outsourced vendors. Southwest has some D and most C capability in PHX, MDW, and DAL but they outsource all engine, most of their component, and a majority percentage of airframe overhaul to outsourcers in the US and El Salvador. So who gives up their jobs so a relative few at AA get top pay?

So we're to believe it's only by the benevolence of upper manAAgement that AA has kept OH inhouse, even though all others have outsourced the majority because in supposedly cheaper? Is this a business or some kind of social evangelical outreach? I for one would rather the compAAny I work for make sound business decisions that would insure it's future existence. The TWU does not seem interested in preserving high paying jobs but instead higher employment numbers. Is that the new and improved function of today's unions? No wonder their in decline.

 

[Bob Owens]

Couple of key points, all those items you cite as AA providing may be true however they offer it to less than half the people AA employs. So they use a simliar pie but make the slices bigger for fewer people. Since UA, US, DL all have less people where did their jobs go? To the outsourcers who offer lower than AA compensation. UA facillities in SFO are Engine and Component overhaul only with the majority of high labor hour content C and D going to outsourced vendors. Southwest has some D and most C capability in PHX, MDW, and DAL but they outsource all engine, most of their component, and a majority percentage of airframe overhaul to outsourcers in the US and El Salvador. So who gives up their jobs so a relative few at AA get top pay?

The outsourcers offer lower compensation to their mechanics but they always did, the more important numbers are what do they charge the airline for that labor? You can say its $55 but where did you get that number? You claim that ours is double that? Well what number are you using to come up with that Max rate or average rate once OSMs, Parts Washers and all the other low paid workers are factored in? When you look at the companys reports it cites the average rate around $27/hr for M&R. Thats including Title II. I heard UPS told their guys that if they wanted to bring OH in house then $41/hr was the best they would offer but would pay $50 to maintain current practice. The vendor isnt going to post the price they charge on large contracts for the world to see and whats left out of those figures that you were fed? Are you saying there are no additional fees and charges that go along with that? The fact is thats all priviledged information not available to the public. When it comes to OH on heavy Turbines what are we talking about maybe a few hundred potential customers worldwide? They arent Walmarts, they dont have to advertise what they charge. Each carrier may get a different quote depending on how bad the vendor wants to make the sale and other factors. It would be more like buying a car than buying Gas. WN likely gets a better price than other carriers because of their singular fleet type. If they are booked up they would charge a lot more because they would have to pay OT to speed up the line to bring that work in, there are scores of variables, probably one of the reasons why most of the majors kept that work in house until AA got all the concessions they got in 2003 without going BK on top of things like SRPs/OSMs that they already had in place and they could not longer compete.

If AA charges double then why would there even be 3p work for them to turn away? Our table position is nowhere near "top pay", we are starting out lower than what WN has. UA and US are in negotiations and Delta can raise their compensation whenever they feel like it. UAL mechanics turned down their TA. UAL and USAIR dont have the threat of dumping OH because they already dumped most of it, so they have nothing to stop them from asking for UPS wages.

Isn't AA over a barrel? There are planes stacking up in TUL waiting for C Checks and the AA has been talking about outsourcing them temporarily to catch up. AA has a supply (overhaul space) and demand problem as well but all their over capacity work will have to go to a high labor cost base. That is unless the TWU builds in some flexibility on work rules, innovative work processes, and add in some vastly improved line maintenance in service levels.

The fact is that the table position meets the needs of the company and starts addressing the needs of the workers, we can no longer go on just addressing the needs of a company that has proven the more you help them the more they will need help. Those working nights in the high cost areas would make the most and those working days in the low cost areas would make the least but all would see a meaningful bump in compensation and financial relief, maybe then the lines in OH would catch up and the performance on the line would improve. If the cost difference creates a burden they can move the work, they have that option, I suspect that it wont. Threats of BK and job loss arent going to make the guys work better, better compensation will. A meaningful pay increase would probably pay for itself, an inadequte one will not get the company what they want, it could make things worse. What flexibility are you saying they need? The ability to bring work in and out? Well why would they even consider that when you claim that its so much cheaper to outsource?

Your facts need checking. NWA flew for many years with only 800 mechanics after the strike. Yeah they had a hiccup but they got back up and running with scab labor, foreign outsourcing, and an accommodating group of federal regulators.

Well those days are gone. The regulators are no longer so accomodating. Go talk to your ASAP coordinator and ask him how busy he is and how often LOIs are sent out nowadays.

 

[Vortilon]

Prove that they take twice the amount to turn an aircraft and who cares how long it takes if you don't need the aircraft that fast. AA has more aircraft out of service than anyone else daily. So we are better? Uh, no.

Ferry costs are only a factor of you don't fly there already. UA, DL, and CO all fly to various destinations in Asia (China, Hong Kong, and Singapore) so ferry costs are a non-issue for them on widebody fleet. Narrowbodies, DL flies to Mexico where Aeromexico does their MD80s for a lot less than $25/hour. FYI the going rate for labor including overhead is $55/hour for airframe touch labor. AA is more like double that. So in Mexico DL can hire three to do what AA does with the cost of one. That's a big cost hurdle. Jetblue and US send their A320s down to El Salvador where they charge less than $55/hour and even though Jetblue doesn't fly there, they go to many Caribbean and Mexican destinations, not a big cost for C Check that is once very 6 years.

Isn't AA over a barrel? There are planes stacking up in TUL waiting for C Checks and the AA has been talking about outsourcing them temporarily to catch up. AA has a supply (overhaul space) and demand problem as well but all their over capacity work will have to go to a high labor cost base. That is unless the TWU builds in some flexibility on work rules, innovative work processes, and add in some vastly improved line maintenance in service levels.

Your facts need checking. NWA flew for many years with only 800 mechanics after the strike. Yeah they had a hiccup but they got back up and running with scab labor, foreign outsourcing, and an accommodating group of federal regulators.

The TWU has some big hurdles to overcome and beating your fist on the table demanding a release has not helped us. Maybe we should hold those Presidents accountable that convinced us to vote no that a better deal was coming shortly? They still go week after week to negotiate and spend money while we wait and suffer. The line presidents run around going to each other's swearing in to welcome a new member to the Presidents Tree Fort Club and haven't got us a deal. The committee has to get their act together now!

Prove it? I experienced it first hand. I used to work at a facility like the ones you profess to say are the saviors of the aircraft maintenance industry. Who are you kidding when you say "who cares how long a heavy check takes"?
That line might work well on somebody that doesn't work in the industry. Your overhaul cost numbers are BS as well. Then factor in the time it takes to un-do the screw ups made at these airframe chop shops.

Funny you mention NWA, I had family there - some now at Delta - no scabs though. I heard the horror stories of NWA's chop shop overhauled 747s. Painting over corrosion, elongating holes to make bolts fit through etc. etc.. It usually took a week or two extra, to make the aircraft airworthy.

You speak of NWA flying with only 800 aircraft mechanics. Yeah, that is the public perception. The inside story is much more grim. Again, I saw first hand the skills, or lack there of said scabs. I met several of them, as they felt obligated to swing by while we were out doing our checks. It was like a who's who of the wretched refuse. The level of skill at NWA dropped so much, that the tech writers were tasked with having to dumb down the maintenance manuals - that is the Gods honest truth.

I am saying, time is gonna come when these domestic aircraft chop shops will no longer be able to take in more work. At this point, they cannot staff their facilities with skilled labor. Ask yourself, would you go to A&P school for two years, drop upwards of $30k at a: Embry Riddle, Spartan, Northrop, PIA or a similar institution only to work at some chop shop? The laws of supply and demand will come into play. The chop shops, in an effort to attract more talent, will have to offer more pay and benefits, still won't be enough. This will drive the cost up to the airlines using their services. The airline got rid of their overhaul capability - oh oh - no alternative.

The almighty dollar vs safety. Fly the plane down to one of these third world hell holes. To have a bunch of illiterate simpletons - who have no concept of the importance of the structures and components they may be working on are.
Now to the untrained eye, people like you, may argue there is no difference in the quality of work performed at one of these banana republics vs Tulsa. Well, Aerosmith has a song - it called "Dream On".

 

[Frank Szabo]

Prove it? I experienced it first hand. I used to work at a facility like the ones you profess to say are the saviors of the aircraft maintenance industry. Who are you kidding when you say "who cares how long a heavy check takes"?
That line might work well on somebody that doesn't work in the industry. Your overhaul cost numbers are BS as well. Then factor in the time it takes to un-do the screw ups made at these airframe chop shops.

Funny you mention NWA, I had family there - some now at Delta - no scabs though. I heard the horror stories of NWA's chop shop overhauled 747s. Painting over corrosion, elongating holes to make bolts fit through etc. etc.. It usually took a week or two extra, to make the aircraft airworthy.

You speak of NWA flying with only 800 aircraft mechanics. Yeah, that is the public perception. The inside story is much more grim. Again, I saw first hand the skills, or lack there of said scabs. I met several of them, as they felt obligated to swing by while we were out doing our checks. It was like a who's who of the wretched refuse. The level of skill at NWA dropped so much, that the tech writers were tasked with having to dumb down the maintenance manuals - that is the Gods honest truth.

I am saying, time is gonna come when these domestic aircraft chop shops will no longer be able to take in more work. At this point, they cannot staff their facilities with skilled labor. Ask yourself, would you go to A&P school for two years, drop upwards of $30k at a: Embry Riddle, Spartan, Northrop, PIA or a similar institution only to work at some chop shop? The laws of supply and demand will come into play. The chop shops, in an effort to attract more talent, will have to offer more pay and benefits, still won't be enough. This will drive the cost up to the airlines using their services. The airline got rid of their overhaul capability - oh oh - no alternative.

The almighty dollar vs safety. Fly the plane down to one of these third world hell holes. To have a bunch of illiterate simpletons - who have no concept of the importance of the structures and components they may be working on are.
Now to the untrained eye, people like you, may argue there is no difference in the quality of work performed at one of these banana republics vs Tulsa. Well, Aerosmith has a song - it called "Dream On".

Why do you argue with a "I can suck it better than you" TWU/company boy?

 

[Vortilon]

Why do you argue with a "I can suck it better than you" TWU/company boy?

You're right. He put it on the ladies tee for me, and I couldn't resist. My bad....

 

[Hackman]

You're right. He put it on the ladies tee for me, and I couldn't resist. My bad....

It was a great post Vortilon, let's play another round shall we? So you think this NOverspeed clown is from the TULE Twu Mushroom factory on Pine St. or just the cross-eyed cousin of High Speed Tool? They both just can't wait to vote YES again on another Twu POS concessionary contract. Must be hell to be so frightened that one believes all the Centerpork fear tactics and along with it's fully owned subsidiary, the Twu International "Don't fight with them" clowns. Was the suck boy wearing his pink panties on the back nine too? Nice... 😀

This is a new NOverspeed Twu Yes Voter Classic; "The TWU has some big hurdles to overcome and beating your fist on the table demanding a release has not helped us. Maybe we should hold those Presidents accountable that convinced us to vote no that a better deal was coming shortly? They still go week after week to negotiate and spend money while we wait and suffer. The line presidents run around going to each other's swearing in to welcome a new member to the Presidents Tree Fort Club and haven't got us a deal. The committee has to get their act together now!" What about the Pilots and the F/A's? Should they get on their knees like the Twu and just take the scraps they are offered by Centerpork? I guess the APA and the APFA should "get their act together now" also. They have been locked in battle (As if you could call what the Twu does a "battle") as long as the Twu or longer. Just vote YES and give up ala Twu style, that's the answer. Ah.... the priceless stench of Twu cowardice....whew, somebody open a window.

At the NOverspeed MRO Chop Shop: "Who cares how long it takes if you don't need the aircraft that fast" This is our business motto!!!! "We get to you....when we get to you." "You want it when?"

I also got to witness the results of NWA/Iam outsourced maintenance first hand, with my own eyes, as I worked in MSP until 2002. My friends (no Scabs either) that worked in the NWA hangers before the lock-out/strike would call me over to see all the mistakes/f-ups and they had to fix on the DC-10 and the 747 hanger queens before they were released into service after returning from the China chop shops. Flaps mis-rigged, fuel leaks in the wings, landing lights that didn't work, engines that were profusely leaking oil, cabin doors that wouldn't close properly, on and on. These aircraft were right out of heavy check, and had to be reworked for 2 weeks or better. How is that a cost savings? Oh I forgot, I guess they didn't need those aircraft that fast, plenty of time for a post chop shop redo. One of my friends got hired back to Delta with all the MSP scabs, he quit after less than a year, the place is worse than when he got axed under the NWA force manure. Good thing it's mostly a line maintenance operation now, those Chinese chop shop birds might never leave the hanger after the heavy checks.

I can't wait for the next Twu sellout, I have another NO vote all loaded up and I'm ready to pull the trigger....again.

Maybe it will happen before the AA bankruptcy.... it's such sceeery stuff....all those threats. I need my Twu binky :unsure:

 

[Bob Owens]

Prove it? I experienced it first hand.

I experiienced that nightmare as well, a few months at AAR.

I am saying, time is gonna come when these domestic aircraft chop shops will no longer be able to take in more work. At this point, they cannot staff their facilities with skilled labor. Ask yourself, would you go to A&P school for two years, drop upwards of $30k at a: Embry Riddle, Spartan, Northrop, PIA or a similar institution only to work at some chop shop? The laws of supply and demand will come into play. The chop shops, in an effort to attract more talent, will have to offer more pay and benefits, still won't be enough. This will drive the cost up to the airlines using their services. The airline got rid of their overhaul capability - oh oh - no alternative.

Exactly, kids didnt get their tickets to go work for those chop shops, they went to those chop shops to get the experience to get into the Majors. So they were willing to work for less as a means to an end, well if the end isnt so great then whats the point of working for less? While the schools no doubt are touting UPS Mechanics pay rates to try and fill seats we should make a point of informing those few kids that are signing up that the likelyhood of them landing a job at UPS are slim and what the rest of the industry is really offering. From everything I've read those places are already having a hard time getting people to do the work they have, never mind taking on AA's fleet.

I also heard that AA is trying to squeeze some of the stuff thats out of time with no place to go into TIMCO, in North Carolina, but since Timco has so much of their own work they are storing the Aircraft in Roswell until they can do it.

 

[Frank Szabo]

... snip

I also heard that AA is trying to squeeze some of the stuff thats out of time with no place to go into TIMCO, in North Carolina, but since Timco has so much of their own work they are storing the Aircraft in Roswell until they can do it.

[sarcasm]

One can only imagine how bad things might be if AA didn't have such a dedicated workforce.

[/sarcasm]

 

[Bob Owens]

[sarcasm]

One can only imagine how bad things might be if AA didn't have such a dedicated workforce.

[/sarcasm]

I can only assume that such dedication is inspired by the fine example set by the people running the company!

 

[wrencher]

[sarcasm]

One can only imagine how bad things might be if AA didn't have such a dedicated workforce.

[/sarcasm]

Why don't they open MCIE back up? I'm sure AA could get it staffed pretty quickly.

 

[MCI transplant]

Why don't they open MCIE back up? I'm sure AA could get it staffed pretty quickly.

<_< ------- Wrencher, as much as I'de like to see that happen, I really don't think there is much chance of it!------- Number one, that would be admitting they made a mistake! And that will never happen! Two, opening it is one thing, but where do you think they'd get the horses to work it? ------ All the good guys have retired, or moved on with their lives!

 

[Buck]

<_< ------- Wrencher, as much as I'd like to see that happen, I really don't think there is much chance of it!------- Number one, that would be admitting they made a mistake! And that will never happen! Two, opening it is one thing, but where do you think they'd get the horses to work it? ------ All the good guys have retired, or moved on with their lives!

Is the TWU representing them?

Parts Washers, Aircraft Cleaners, Security Guards, Stock Clerks, Facility Maintenance Mechanics, Machinists, Wielders and the people from the AA Credit Union...

did I miss anyone?

 

[MCI transplant]

<_< ------- TWU?------ Ain't that the same outfit that voted to shut us down, while taking our dues at the same time?------- :unsure: Yea! I do believe that it is!!!

 

[wrencher]

<_< ------- Wrencher, as much as I'de like to see that happen, I really don't think there is much chance of it!------- Number one, that would be admitting they made a mistake! And that will never happen! Two, opening it is one thing, but where do you think they'd get the horses to work it? ------ All the good guys have retired, or moved on with their lives!

Belive me MCI TRANSPLANT there are still plenty of good ex mci mechanics out here who could still get the job done.

 

[Buck]

Belive me MCI TRANSPLANT there are still plenty of good ex mci mechanics out here who could still get the job done.

Yes they are on Dock 1D at TULE.