Helicopter Industry

[Bullet Remington]

Geez, not meaning to cut anybody down here, but I am most taken aback!

Further, I have no desire to belittle anything BlackMac is attempting to accomplish! But man, this has gone from the sublime to the ridiculous!

While I do strongly believe that an association has its merits, and I have comtemplated joining said association., I ponder the justification in joining an organization with member/s who readily jump down some thoat, especially when there is little or no provacation. Specifically in the last couple of posts.

Come on people, we are all grown ups (I believe??) here. Disagreements and varying points of view are an inherent human trait.

Why would we not all agree to disagree on some issues, agree on others, and accept that fact that not all will agree with our personal points of view all the time, without resorting to small minded derogatory statements.

BlackMac, I admire your goals and sense of purpose. Having said that, I am reluctant to get involved with an organization in which a differing points of view results in verbal brow beating and derogatory remarks. I personally believe your remark of "you mother crawling out from underneath the veranda and barking, was uncalled for and beyond the boundaries of edicate and good taste.

I wish you well with your endeavour. However, Sir, you have eliminated all doubt from my mind. Your success will not be dependent upon my support, nor my contribution.

Should you wish to make defamatory remarks to me, feel free. However, in that I would never allow myself to belittle your wife, nor mother, kindly grant me the same courtesy.

Good Luck to you, Sir.

BR

 

[Harmonic_Vibe]

One of the truisms of life is that everyone is entitled to their opinion. I tell the guys I work with all the time to share their opinions with me so that I can straighten them out... 🙂.

Anyway, the vituperative nature of many of Blackmac's posts is, as far as I'm concerned, unacceptable. He talks of people whining and complaining when I can't detect any whining or complaining in the posts to which he's referring. Honest debate, of the issues, is how people learn, reflect and modify their opinions and ideas. If people don't agree with you that doesn't mean that you start to disparage them or anything associated with them... unless you're trying to start a fight... then it's a highly successful technique (right VR?). I read this forum because I want to know what's going on... I don't want my blood pressure peaking. I am shocked that Blackmac has the nerve to say that others' posts are the reason people no longer view or share in this forum... I know a lot of people who feel that many of Blackmac's posts are completely negative and counter-productive (myself included). Once again, "everyone is entitled to their opinion". But your opinion shouldn't be that someone else's opinion is stupid, meaningless or less than well-intended. Unless there's beer involved and a short visit to the parking lot is in order!

HV

 

[Blackmac]

Harmonic Vibe:

You are slightly out of tune. If you had taken the time to go back in history on this site, maybe you would know from whence I come.

I have put together an organization at no cost to you or the dis-tractors and everybody has their two cents to throw in with no constructive criticism, other than to try and be-little my efforts on behalf of the engineers and pilots.

I say again ####, MOAN & Groan, but try to do something about it, NO WAY.

There is a whole preamble of what HEPAC is trying to accomplish, nobody has made any comment or constructive advice, other than to try and pick me apart and for your information it is usally the same individuals.

I have offered this organization at "no cost" to anybody that wishes to take it over, NO TAKERS.

Everybodies got a big mouth, when hiding behind anonymity.

("freedom from identification: the state of not being known or identified by name, for example, as the author or donor of something")

You have my name and address, so put up or shut up.

Cheers, Don

PS: Does it come across that I am slightly frustrated or just off my meds.

A visit to the parking lot was suggested, but the person who was invited went crying to his mummy. ( other wise known as lawyer)

PS: For BR only, the original version of that joke comes from a priest after he was side swipped in an accident.

 

[Harmonic_Vibe]

Maybe a little of both.

I know exactly how you feel about people who have the opportunity to offer input at the start of something... but don't, and then have all kinds of things to say later, about what "should have been done" or "what could have been done", etc.

However, my father taught me that when you lose your temper you've also lost your audience. So, my (unsolicted) advice is to keep your cool, don't let the detractors or nay-sayers get you down if you believe in what you're doing, and get the doctor to increase the dosage.

HV

 

[arctic_front]

well, I maybe new to this forum, but I sure can see that although the majority of threads are are quite civil, this sure is not. Maybe its the subject matter, but its a bit over the top.

I was trying to suggest that the 'market place' will decide the wages/ working conditions not trying to "dream on" as someone suggested. my current company finally had to admit that if they wanted bodies with wrenches in their hands this summer, the pay scale had to improve....so we all got a raise.

By working contract, the laws of supply and demand comes into play. we all have skills to 'sell' so it should be to the highest bidder. As one person said, "we have base jobs to protect", fair enough.....but that is the leverage the company uses to not raise the bar. I have seen that lever used more as a hammer at current employer....they count on the fact that we own houses or have extended families here to keep us quiet. Some of the guys say they don't want to be away from home all the time as a contract engineer, but the majority of companies have rather decent rotations now, so they would in fact be at home more often than they are now.

Anyway, not trying to pick a fight, just add my version of the "association" debate

 

[Blackmac]

Arctic Front;

Maybe you should read the preamble and try and digest some of what it means or provide input and maybe with an association and within that community you could achive some of your goals. I guess the dream on really hit home with the question you are seeking an answer to on the AME thread. Every individual will always be an individual, only a whole bunch of individuals that get together have a louder voice.

If you do not beleive me, DREAM ON.

Cheers, Don


For Harmonic Vibe: As some of you people seem to have become members a little later than most, I will try and give you a little up-date.

HEPAC was not started by any individuals with any agenda other than to increase the welfare of Helicopter Engineers & Pilots.

Nobody is drawing any salaries, at present.

The membership fee's are to cover the expenses of the various committees that would be made up of represenative membership, and for lawyers fee's as required to represent HEPAC with the regulatory bodies.

Most of this is stated in the preamble, but can be modified as required by the members.

I personally, have nothing to gain from HEPAC, my time has expired.

So, in essence, your father might be right, but I do not see any similarities.

All these people have to do is get together and do something for themselves, which apparently, is very difficult.

Cheers, Don

 

[Biggles]

Okay, or rather should I say enough ! Haven't ran into Sharkbait yet to explain why I haven't been active on the forum lately. I don't think it'll take a rocket scientist to figure out why, but just in case it doesn't seem obvious to a few, I will explain to you all, primarily focusing on this topic.

I've read through this discussion about a half of dozen times. I've written a few versions of replies which resulted or required too many deletions from beginning to end. I am very peed off at certain posters who have made this very forum an embarrassment (and you do know who you are). This dam on-going useless, immature, back and forth critisism, etc (hell I don't know what to call it at this point) has turned me off incredibly.

I, like most, joined this forum as a newbee a couple years ago (that includes the old one). I, like many others had my first run in with Mr. Blackmac and the best part, it was on my very first post! Within the next 2-3 posts, I quickly learned that Blackmac (among others yes that would be you Chas and Cap - wherever you are) was no fool. I caught on, enjoyed and quite frankly appreciated his perception, input and experience. Oh, sure he's a little intolerant with belly-achers, perhaps a little short with whinners, and zero time for ignorants - but let me guess - you guys aren't. He is also quite blunt and doesn't beat around the bush. However, and more importantly, he is an amazing person, knowledgeable, experienced whether you like it or not! Nuff of the compliments!

Unfortunately most people have to run into some concrete wall, head on, at full speed to come to an understanding on life, people, situations, whatever. Its called growing up. I grew up a few years ago. There will always be critisism, back-stabbing a-holes, jealous and extremely insecure types. This is what I've been seeing and feeling in the past months. Again, you know who you are and at this point I don't give a rats butt how this may affect you or if it even affects you at all.

Basically what I'm trying to say (if for any other reason but to encourage to new comers, or for those that have pulled away like I, or to try to persuade those that have made this into a wrestling match) to lighten up, stay focused, interested and TO GET INVOLVED. Frig, get back to the whole idea of what an association could be and its purpose. Work together, don't build a frickin wall and shut out what could be a dam good, informative, intelligent, and way overdue association grouping fine professionals. Give it challenges, give it ideas for mandates of what could be done to improve, secure or educate those that use our services without half the time knowing what it entails. Remember, we are all part of an amazing unique industry - who by the way, are here because of a common passion (disease).

Blackmac, a retired pilot-eng, has nothing gain. He's got clout, spunk, a burning passion to create something for you or at the very least get it going. For more than a year this has been going on. I have read more garbage than good. Its way time for this to be taken seriously. If you don't believe in the potential of an association (NOT UNION), if you don't like the messenger, stay simply away. Let others decide for themselves, let them ask questions, let them get involved without feeling the reluctance to even breath a word because of your hang-ups and sure verbal attacks.

Rather than waste our time in usless, draining and pointless attacks, try using that same effort in bringing up real ideas, positive inputs etc...

I don't mean to make this sound like a lecture or a parent scolding the wee ones, but face it, it has gone too far and for absolutely no reason at all. Deal with your demons on your own time - thats all I'm trying to say.

GIT-R-DONE !!!

 

[helicopper]

a quick recap for any/all newcomers...

on 17DEC03 (ironically enough the 100th anniversary of the wright brothers' graduation from bicycle manufacturing!) don mcdougall (aka blackmac) singlehandedly created HEPAC... this accomplishment being a minor miracle in itself, a project taken upon by an individual who has no vested interest whatsoever in its success given that he is 70 years old and undoubtedly FORGOTTEN more about the helo industry in this country than this particular dumb irishman will EVER know... other than an apparent obligation to give back something to an industry in which he devoted his life's work to... his sole purpose being the development of professionalism within the ENTIRE group of participants within this industry... engineers, pilots, management as well as customers/clients who are quite obviously the lifeblood of our work...

having lived through four years of absolute hell (aka no flying) following a considerable investment in 1981, and presently being fortunate enough to pilot a quality aircraft on a daily basis that is maintained by a true professional in every sense of the word, i considered it my obligation to include my name within this charter as a token "director" solely for the purpose of assisting HEPAC get its wings... sometime in the not-so-distant future, i would dearly love to work with a HEPAC committee dedicated to working WITH both management/operators and transport canada for the purpose of establishing a professional mentorship program designed to eliminate the catch 22 scenario every new, 100 hour pilot within this country faces... and which ultimately results in the LOSS of considerable canadian aviation talent.

with that goal in mind, i remain one of the few members of this association to date... my own profession (policing) has benefitted significantly from its establishment of a professional association... i truly believe in its merits.

don... as discussed with you earlier, my personal preference is to lower the membership dues to $50... no unemployed flyboy or engineer can afford to bring his/her ideas & commitment to our table at 200 bones a plate... let's get some bodies and have our first meet!

and if you EVER slag another prospective HEPAC member's mother :angry: ,i will personally arrive in downtown kemptville and give you a kick in the arz!! 🙂 🙂 (and then we'll have that drink you've been promising me)

play safe out there everyone... am off canoeing the french river/georgian bay with my young lad for a week (the fish are undoubtedly safe!)

dan mulligan
oppa/phpa/alea/hepac

 

[sharkbait]

Sorry if anyone thougth my remark about the visit to the mint and the Swedish Bikini team was anymore than the joke it was intended to be. A great idea -but try to agee on the day. In the future I will put all intended jokes in quotations with JOKE thereafter.
Having said that I will say that the Air Ambulance pilots and engineers " wait and see" policy is less than impressive.
They, or the company have. according to friends on the job, let the medics take over the operation. Whom is to blame? Good question.
What are they willing to do about it? Not much or so it seems.
#### and gripe on this forum. Perhaps - effect on management - nil.

 

[Albert Ross]

I, too have been lurking on this one for some time. Speaking as one of the few (paid up members) I should add that quite a few people have suggested independently to me that there should be an association - they haven't even heard of this one, so maybe we could get some flyers up to be put in prominent places?

I agree that $200 is too much, but it does take a lot to start these sort of things, and I've been there myself). It's only when a critical mass is eveident that the fees could start coming down - so let's start telling people!

Phil

 

[Biggles]

Helicopper !! Ya think between your policing background and my parenting skills we can keep some kind of handle on this thing !

I like the sound of 50$ a as membership fee for starters. Lets bring together members, ideas, mandates then see if we can do. Membership mods can be done afterwards if necesary or maybe various levels could be established.

Anyhow, later gators ....

 

[MagSeal]

As a member of the aviation industry in canada, I feel that I have the right to ask questions regarding any possibility of change in the industry. Both good and bad can come of an association and i will put the individuals on the spot light who are expected to give answers.
Should my questions and/or opinions go unanswered, (or 'attacked' as the case be on some occasions), I have the ability to make my own decision on the next level to take it, then it's their move...there is obviosly a fine line dividing the terminology on what the 'debate' should actually be referred to.
You will notice that there is always a common denominator related to the lowest level the posts reach. How it gets that low is up to the last person making the comments. We have seen how low 'he' can take it, I haven't seen anyone else reach that low yet.
Years of experience in the industry do not give them the right to freely attack and disregard the opinions of others. Everybody deserves respect. If you're not willing to show respect, you sure won't get it.
The association idea is suffering for one reason only.

 

[Albert Ross]

I take everyone's point about a union, but I don't want people being forced into fiddling duty hours, flying overweight, going off into bad weather, yada yada yada - as far as I'm concerned the sooner this association gets going the better.

Phil

 

[Rosco]

Bigs....Good on y'a and very well said. I agree 100%.

I remember not too long ago when this used to be a real fun place to come and learn stuff along with having a great laugh. It'd be nice to get back to that and boost the readership. Especially as some have stated for the noobies. It'd be great to have alot of the ol' crew come back and joust some more causing many good laughs and much learning.

5-0....Glad you took the bull by the horns....just dont let go. The Assc. can work.

See y'all whever this place turns around to a place worth coming back to.

Cheers

R

 

[MagSeal]

anyone ever think its sucks because all the 'good' guys left?

Instead of whining for things to change, show up, and make those changes. Why sit around waiting for something to happen. Put your two cents worth in, put in your opinions, put in your stories and make it happen yourself, it's not going to serve itself to you on a silver platter. Ignore what doesn't interest you, maybe we could even get Kyle to add an ignore feature where you can totally tune out your worst enemies for good.