It seems to me that the AA mechanics are really in a bind as far as union representation goes. Its quite clear that being lumped into the same contract as FSCs and other lesser skilled workers keeps their salary down, but on the other hand it is even more clear that small specialized unions like AMFA at NWA just do not hold the power to shut down the airline, which is the real power that a union holds. Even further, the AA mechanics are devided between line mechanics, many of who work in expensive locations like NYC, LAX, Chicago, and MIA and base mechanics who work in very inexpensive locations like Tulsa and Fort Worth. So the line mechanics, the one who appear the most ready to strike or vote against concessions, etc..., just aren't sizable enough to pressure the company or even their own union.
History Of B Scale
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It seems to me that the AA mechanics are really in a bind as far as union representation goes. Its quite clear that being lumped into the same contract as FSCs and other lesser skilled workers keeps their salary down, but on the other hand it is even more clear that small specialized unions like AMFA at NWA just do not hold the power to shut down the airline, which is the real power that a union holds. Even further, the AA mechanics are devided between line mechanics, many of who work in expensive locations like NYC, LAX, Chicago, and MIA and base mechanics who work in very inexpensive locations like Tulsa and Fort Worth. So the line mechanics, the one who appear the most ready to strike or vote against concessions, etc..., just aren't sizable enough to pressure the company or even their own union.
TWU informer
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Oneflyer said:
The idea was to get ALL mechanics in one union and stop the whipsaw concessions to the bottom.
As long as the AA Mechanics remain in the bus drivers union and capitulate at every negotiations, the rest of the profession suffers at the hands of the TWU.
In other words, the AMFA idea has not yet been tried, therefore the idea has not failed yet as you seem to believe.
Regardless, at least with AMFA it is the members who decide who the leaders are instead of appointments, and most importantly, the AMFA presentation before the PEB at Northwest Airlines should not be forgotten. Brian Fennigan from PAMA gave testimony during those hearings that will ring true soon enough. In short, the airlines can hammer away at the pay and benefits of maintenance technicians, but soon, nobody goes to 121 schools to get certified and become a mechanic, then as the industry grows with cheap tickets competing with the bus, there will soon be a shortage of mechanics that will lead to safety concerns. Who wants to spend the time and money for schooling to work Holidays, Weekends, and Midnight Shifts, out in the elements for low pay and benefits? Never has the TWU, IAM, IBT, ever presented such a pro-mechanic arguement before the Federal Government. It must too be considered, that NWA somehow couldn't force a strike and replace those mechanics pre- 9/11 during those negotiations. Those days will soon return, and the AA mechanic will still be represented by the most docile union in the industry leading the concession path to the bottom, and the destruction of a profession.
Your opinion is based solely on recent events, and completely disregards some of the most positive history of the profession presented by non other than the small specialized union known as AMFA. That history was not that long ago, and should not be forgotten.
NewHampshire Black Bears
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Wretched Wrench said:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Wretched Wrench,
NO TRUE(er) words were EVER spoken !!!!!!!!!!!
(with regard to the AMT's/FSC's and Pilots)
Once AA got everything re-located to TUL/DFW(from New York) their labor problems were solved for TIME ETERNAL !!!!!!!!!!!!!
In other words, "WE have met the enemy, and It is US" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
NH/BB's
It has failed in the sense that the AMFA has not been able to shut down NWA. You are completely right when you say that a multi-airline union of mechanics would have considerable power, but even then you'd have to have every single mechanic or it doesn't work.
What you're talking about is supply and demand, at that point why do you even need a union? If there aren't enough workers, then the airline HAS to pay well, they have no choice. I guess I just don't get it.
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Oneflyer said:
BINGO
Bagbelt
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Industry strikes have been illegal since the late 60's. If it was possible every other AMFA carrier would have walked allready. Even if AA went AMFA everyone is still isolated at contract time. At that time too I believe the carriers were allowed to help each other weather a strike.
kirkpatrick
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Up until the mid seventies there was a thing called the "Mutual Aid Pact." Participating airlines shared their "windfall profits" with the struck airline, making a strike less difficult for an airline to handle.Bagbelt said:
When TWA FA's struck in Nov '74, the company simply shut the whole operation down for seven weeks. There were no scabs or opportunity to scab, since there were no flights. Then they suddenly settled just before xmas. We showed up at union meetings where the new contract was presented and voted in on the spot. We went back to work within a day or so; Dec 22 IIRC.
MK
I disagree with your statement that AMTs being "lumped in" with FSCs and others keep AMT wages down. As Frank Lorenzo has shown at EAL and Continental when he decimated EVERYONE'S salary at those two carriers. He outsourced ramp at almost all citites and those he did not he paid his own people garbage wages with no benefits. Since he decimated the "unskilled", were the AMTs paid what they felt they were worth? Absolutely not! In fact, they were far far behind (50%-60% less) than AMTs at AA, UA, DL, etc. Look at USAir today, their ramp tops out at $17/hr in their largest 12 cities with a top out of $14/hr in their class 2 cities with less benefits and no pension and their long time people are leaving/have left in droves and they are having a difficult time getting new hires for what they are paying. Did the destruction of the USAir rampers save the mechanics? At NW, the AMTs have been permanently replaced by scabs. If/when NW destroys the pay of it's ramp people, do you think that NW management will give huge raises to the AMTs? Having said all of this, I fully support the AA AMTs going to AMFA if they so desire. It is irrelevent to the "lesser skilled" employees. The "coattail" theory has been nothing more than a lie and has been proven so by all the examples listed above. It just gives SOME AMTs someone to blame for their problems.Oneflyer said:
Take note of that post NWA FAs.
This person is a Local Union official from Local 514 and that is exactly the type of representation you can expect from the TWU:
"NO ONE was forced to hire on at AA. If the recruiter lied to you, you could always quit. AA is not the US military, so many fondly remember, you were not compelled to stay;"
No, believe it or not thats not management speaking, its the TWU.
Its a little more complicated than that.
Its not like if the airlines raise payrates then all of a sudden there will be more A&Ps and A&Ps tend to remain because seniority is very important in a 24hr x 365day operation and they expect that things will improve. However most no longer have those expectations, they may not leave right away, but slowly but surely they will leave, and thats exactly what the airlines want so they can bring in FAR 66. Through FAR 66 the airlines plan to eliminate the market for A&Ps altogether.
Another spoiler for supply vs demand is the government gets involved and blocks us from making gains when there are shortages.
Four years after the contract became renewable NWA the NMB told AMFA that if they did not lower their demands he would never release them, they lowered their demands then the President hit them with a PEB anyway. Recently we saw where the NMB released both parties to self help in a matter of weeks, vs years. The difference? The company had the upper hand. This is not unique, it happened in the 80s too.
Thats one of the reasons why I feel we should break the law, its applied unevenly.
Later on the President also hit the mechanics at UAL with a PEB then a Judge opened their contract and changed it.
What most people remember about the 90s was that it was boomtime, well for us it sucked. Our wages were continueing to decline in real terms while most others were seeing improvements. "You have a contract" we were told. It was unreasonable for us to expect to open the contract early even though as the company was seeing record profits we were suffereing economic hardship. WE had to suffer through the 90s while the company kept making promises about how they were going to pay us once the contract became amendable.
However when it was the other way around the courts and the NMB aided the airlines every step of the way.
Endless delays when we are in a position to make gains, in the case of NWA FOUR YEARS, and an expedited release from the NMB or court imposed changes when the company wanted them. So as you can see the cards are stacked against us.
If the rules are not fair they should be broken.
You have a point. I'd rather take my chances standing next to an FSC from NYC than a mechanic from Tulsa or MCI. In our case its the manipulation by company friendly TWU officials who can not be removed that has destroyed all our careers. They have split us up so many ways its unbelievable. 30,000 members split between 21 Locals.
Local 100 has more members than all 21 of us added up. The people the members elect control the contract. The International controls our contract. Thats why they have power and we dont.
Our union never tries to convince our so called "brothers" to consider the fact that their above local market rates are supported by the income generated in high cost areas. That without people working in those areas there simply would not be enough revenue to support their incomes. I would trade places with the NWA mechanic. If I had gone there instead, I would have earned around $100,000 more than I have. That extra bankroll would have put me in a better position to make the eventual transition.
However, Lorenzo did hit FSCs harder than mechs. Lorenzo also owned New York Air. Mechs did the pushbacks too! Their pay for mechs at NYA was close to what the majors were paying with the same amount of years with the company, in some cases more, however they contracted out fleet and they made around minimum wage with the contractor.
I doubt the 50 to 60% figure is accurate when all considerations are made. In fact the EAL scabs (new hires)may have been earning more than the new hire TWU members at AA. You have to remember that new hires at AA were making about 40 to 50% less than those who were topped out. Actually even NWA is paying their "New Hire" scabs, more than the TWU rate for "New Hires" at AA.
Bob, I don't know that much about New York Air. But wasn't it merged into CO along with People Express after it sold it's "shuttle assets" to Pan AM? (Lorenzo was forced to divest this because he acquired EAL and it's shuttle) Did the New York Air AMTs get to keep their pay and benefits, or did they drop down to CO's pay and work rules? Were NYA AMTs union? Lorenzo was maybe a little "kinder" to the EAL AMTs than he was to the CO AMTs in the early 1980s (My 50%-60% figure was mainly about CO in the early 1980s in terms of total compensation of topped out CO AMTs when compared with topped out AMTs at the others). At EAL, he did hit ramp harder but the AMTs still took a big drop in compensation. Lorenzo's destruction of the ramp at EAL did not translate into industry leading compensation for EAL AMTs.
Not sure why but no one has mentioned that in 1985 the twu introduced the C scale also.
By the time the 1995 contract roled around everyone was sick of the A,B and C scale bickering and things were going well with AA so what does the twu and AA come up with? The infamous D scale mechanic called an SRP. This was the twu and AA's answer to outsourcing. Instead of out right outsourcing they created a cut/rate mechanic. The twu maintained its dues flow and AA got its answer to outsourcing. The bottom line was that A/P mechanics saw their jobs go out the door but stay inhouse. The story at the time was that if a mechanic was ever bumped to one of these positions he would maintain his license pay. Guess what??????
will fix for food
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I'm sure I will get flamed for this but if I was looking at a layoff I would rather bump to an SRP position and retain my seniority and benefits and pension than end up on the street.
Is that how it works or do I have it wrong?
Correct! No doubt that would be the better option but the point here was that the twu bested the B scale by 2 more letters ie. (C and D scale). Its been a while since that contract but it was either 20% or 25% of the mechanics that could be displaced by srp's now called OSM's. Keeping maintenance inhouse deserves some bragging rights but lets tell the whole story on how it was accomplished.
