How is AA computing flight attendant cost?

[Hopeful]

Don't know, don't care. He is working for less base salary than most CFOs of major corporations. If he worked for free, his pay divided among all represented workers wouldn't give you a $10/year raise.






Nope, you're incorrect. I do think you're being impatient. As some others have posted, waiting until AA actually recovers would probably give you more leverage. Aren't execs are more likely to settle for higher pay if it means preserving a profit stream without a devastating strike? If you strike when the company is losing a billion dollars a year, the execs are likely to thank you for shutting it down.



Yes, you want guaranteed raises regardless of whether the venture makes money.



Executives have never and will never "feel the pain" that "lowly workers" feel. They took base salary cuts in 2003 and took 1.5% raises each year (just like the represented workers). Their LT incentive pay agreements paid off big when AA's stock outperformed all comparable airlines by recovering from $1.25/sh to $41/sh. Yes, I know your stock options didn't make up for your pain. Your union should have demanded more upside in 2003. It didn't, and it failed you. If it were me, I would have spent the last 7 years replacing the worthless union and setting in motion increases to my pay instead of worrying about Arpey's paychecks, but to each his own.

Lets answer each item.

+++++As for Horton....It's not the point that no matter what his raise was, it wouldn't do anything for employee paychecks. When it comes to executives, they usually give them what they want. they killed two birds with one stone here. They got back the most valuable Horton AND Arpey got a raise....

+++++As for raises....Yes I want guaranteed raises in lieu of profit sharing and stock options and bonuses.
Leave that for the execs. Most of us decided years ago not to go into management for that being one the reasons.
When these big shots sign on with AA, do they not get certain guarantees? Are they not guaranteed ANYTHING when they leave or if the company decides to oust them?
Why is it ok for an executive to get get what he or she demands, but the rest of us just have to be good little boys and girls and wait for crumbs.

+++++Impatient, darn right! You sound like a smart person. Can you total what I lost over almost 7 years? $20,000/yr. In return I got $.42 an hour. What's 1.5% for an executive?
You are correct about replacing The Worthless Union. Unfortunately it will never happen.
The bulk of the mechanics are in one place and all the company has to do is threaten outsourcing and POOF!!!!! we have another industry leading concessionary contract.
One other thing I could not disagree with you more on....No matter what this company earns in terms of profits will ever get us back to where we were 7 years ago.

As far as worrying about Arpey's, Hortons, or any execs paychecks, I would rather not have to. But when they preached sharing the pain, theirs was minuscule to non existent compared to ours.

The only pain they knew was perhaps making less than their position counterparts at other companies.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Hopeful,

To be brutally honest, I'm not sure what you want anyone here to say. You say profit sharing, stock options, bonuses should be left to execs because you want dollars in your pocket (not that there's anything wrong with wanting a bigger paycheck) but you and others rant about the executive profit sharing, stock options, bonuses that the execs get.

I don't think anyone here has said that you (the group "you") shouldn't fight for whatever you can get. I know I've said that if all the AA employees can negotiate $1 million/year pay rates I'd be among the first to say "Great, I'm glad you got it".

Is it fair that the execs get 1,000 times, 2,000 times the pay of the average worker? Absolutely not. But beating your head against that concrete wall won't make it go away. Using that energy to get your union to get you the best possible contract they can will be much more productive than exchanging barbs with people who post here.

Jim

 

[Hopeful]

Hopeful,

To be brutally honest, I'm not sure what you want anyone here to say. You say profit sharing, stock options, bonuses should be left to execs because you want dollars in your pocket (not that there's anything wrong with wanting a bigger paycheck) but you and others rant about the executive profit sharing, stock options, bonuses that the execs get.

I don't think anyone here has said that you (the group "you") shouldn't fight for whatever you can get. I know I've said that if all the AA employees can negotiate $1 million/year pay rates I'd be among the first to say "Great, I'm glad you got it".

Is it fair that the execs get 1,000 times, 2,000 times the pay of the average worker? Absolutely not. But beating your head against that concrete wall won't make it go away. Using that energy to get your union to get you the best possible contract they can will be much more productive than exchanging barbs with people who post here.

Jim

To be brutally honest with you. Prior to our concessions being forced fed on us, I could care less what an executive made. My ranting began when it was realized that they did not continue to share the pains. Do you understand?

As far as using my energy to get my union to get the best possible deal, well just read this board and even some of your posts.....We are repeatedly told that we are unrealistic for expecting because of the economy and the delicate situation of the company.
This company took a huge amount from us, and they want more. And even though wages are the main issue, there is language they want that is totally unacceptable.

Do you think the Pilots would ever allow only the Captain to being fully licensed and certified in that cockpit? Maybe I can fly as FO and make my mechanic salary.

The company wants unlicensed mechanics. And don't kid yourself, you give AA an inch, they will take a mile. Within years they will stop hiring licensed mechanics and petition the government and FAA to totally eliminate the need for licensed A&Ps.

Their excuse will undoubtedly be due the shortage of mechanics in the industry.

The MARKET theory won't apply to mechanics like it does to the ever so valuable executives.

And your comment about obscene executive compensation compared to average worker is being conditioned into us. Level headed people like yourself accept it because there's nothing we can do about it. We are expected to suck it up because we are not part of that exclusive club. Execs have contracts when they are recruited by a company. they get guarantees in their contract. But when it comes to the worker, we have to give it all up or else.

Sorry, Jim. I am an advocate of helping a company stay at bottom of the list in ever aspect of their business.
As many a VP of line maintenance has told us for decades, money is not a motivator..that is, unless, you are an exec.

 

[BoeingBoy]

dupe post - sorry. Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

That's maybe the disconnect - you and others seem to equate cautions about not counting on getting your every wish with being told to either accept the status quo or worse. As I said in one of these threads before, neither FWAAA, eolsen, nor I have said don't expect anything. It's not necessarily an either/or proposition - there is middle ground where the employees get more but not everything they wish and the company still saves over pre-2003 but not as much.

I know - look at the company proposal and all they want. Let me let you in on a secret. There's a reason why it's called a proposal and not a contract - it's the companies wish list and nothing else. The employees also have a wish list - be it "restore and more" or whatever. The purpose of negotiations is for the company and union to meet somewhere in the middle. That's why I say your energy is better directed at getting the union and your fellow employees not to just accept the company's proposal but do some hard nosed negotiating to get the best deal for you they can. Then you vote whatever you want when it's time to ratify the negotiated agreement. Ranting about the execs, while it may be an effective way to vent, won't accomplish anything at the negotiating table. That I can guarantee.

Here's another secret for you - your biggest enemy isn't the execs, it's your fellow workers who are more afraid of losing their job than not getting a better contract or giving more concessions. I have no idea what percentage that is, but they are out there. If they give more input to the union than those like you, guess who wins. The execs.

Finally, one last secret. Trying to get contract improvements in normal negotiations is a lot easier than when the company is in bankruptcy. So as much as you say you don't care, the old adage about being careful what you wish for because you might get it definitely applies. The execs can and most likely would abrogate your contract with the judges blessing. You would work under a contract they dictate, probably for the duration of the plan of reorganization plus however long beyond that it would take to negotiate a new contract - 10 or more years wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility.

Jim

ps - almost forgot. I've always understood why you rant about executive compensation. I've even agreed that it's unfair. My only point has been that it will have no effect to rant here (other than possibly make you feel better, in which case rant away and I'll ignore it).

 

[eolesen]

Very well put, Jim.

 

[Hopeful]

I know - look at the company proposal and all they want. Let me let you in on a secret. There's a reason why it's called a proposal and not a contract - it's the companies wish list and nothing else. The employees also have a wish list - be it "restore and more" or whatever. The purpose of negotiations is for the company and union to meet somewhere in the middle. That's why I say your energy is better directed at getting the union and your fellow employees not to just accept the company's proposal but do some hard nosed negotiating to get the best deal for you they can. Then you vote whatever you want when it's time to ratify the negotiated agreement. Ranting about the execs, while it may be an effective way to vent, won't accomplish anything at the negotiating table. That I can guarantee.

Jim

ps - almost forgot. I've always understood why you rant about executive compensation. I've even agreed that it's unfair. My only point has been that it will have no effect to rant here (other than possibly make you feel better, in which case rant away and I'll ignore it).

You are unaware that usual business with AA is returning to the table with a worse contract than what was rejected. Why is it some consider the unions proposal a "Wish list?", but the company's proposals fair and rational because of current economic situations. With AA, there is no meeting in the middle. Are you aware that individuals like me demand "restore and more" but are you aware that TWU's actual proposal is no where what people like me demand?
The TWU does not dare demand anything from AA. The spineless TWU leaders do not want to ask for too much from the company.
And guess what Jim....The company still wants more.
I have read the full company proposal and I can tell you for sure, there will be no middle ground with this management. Do you call getting back maybe 2% of what we gave back SEVEN years ago "middle ground?" There is language in there that would make Frank Lorenzo do cartwheels with joy.


I have a little secret for you Jim.....I don't care, i will rant about executive greed here all I want. The reason I will is because I know that executives or representatives of their elitist group read this forum avidly. for them it is better than bugging offices and break rooms.

Come April, when PUPS are disclosed, folks like yourself will tell us complaining won't help and ranting about it won't change anything.

I have another secret for you......When the PUPS are announced, a heck of alot more people than myself will react with even worse morale and attitude. Do you think they will want to make AA number one with no reward?

People are fed up and more and more employees are no longer subscribing to the "lucky to have a job" spiel.

You know how the executives negotiate on their own worth and get a contract that guarantees them certain things?
Well, I don't have that luxury, so all I can do is show them my disgust. When AA makes me number one or near it, I will make them number one.

Let them go first. I went first with their industry leading concessions which afterward they probably hurt their arms patting themselves on their own backs for such a coup.

You don't like hearing my executive compensation rant, I'm tired of your submissive defense that there's nothing we can do about it.

There is one thing we can do and that is to keep AA at the bottom..
I am close to retirement and will gladly take my chances with a PEB. I will go the strike route even if it means CH. 11.....

I could care less...You can have the last word, or eolesen or Fwaaa..


I'm done, have the last word but think you won this argument when I don't respond to company propaganda.