IAM in T/A - Now we need ratification and the loan

Strange,

While everyone is shaking in fear over a Senate Bill that has not even passed, the AFL-CIO unions are giving up concessions without the abritration.

http://www.iam141m.org/141MSummaryB.PDF

Owens and the rest of the socialist can attempt to blame the conservatives all they want, meanwhile their own dues collection agencies are selling the farm without Lott, Bush, and the rest of the evil republicans.
 
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On 11/21/2002 5:51:08 PM Bob Owens wrote:

Could anyone say that someone earning $200K or even $100K is deprived? But, the pilot who goes down to $100K will gain a lot more when the company turns around. He will still be way ahead of the game. The mechanic making $70k could probably find employment that replaces this income should United fail. How likely is the pilot to find a job paying $300K? Mechanical jobs that require the very skills that mechanics posess are out there in other industries. Right now they may not be that easy to find but recessions are cyclical events, this will end. How many jobs are out there for pilots at $300,000 or for flight attendants that pay $50 per hour, recession or not? Now I'm not attacking your rates of pay, I realize that only those with many years get to those levels,your worth every penny you make, the question is could you replace it? Is your risk of permanent loss greater or less than a mechanics? I would say that it would probably be very difficult for a top paid pilot to find another job at $300,000/year, same for several other classifications, therefore you may have a greater incentive to make any neccisary sacrifice, but for mechanics the potential for loss is less. When EAL went under, their mechanics, even those in their 60s with health problems were picked up pretty quickly, within three years they not only were at top pay but making more than they did at EAL, same with the Pan Am mechanics. I doubt that any of the other workers recovered as quickly. Therefore, would it be fair if the mechanics said NO to givebacks even if everyone else agreed? YES. Why? Because mechanics have never earned a wage that is considerably higher than they could have earned in other industries with the same skills. Because why should they make the same sacrifice when they dont have as much to lose or gain? Tilton isnt working for nothing is he? Why is he going to get more in one year than most people make in a lifetime from a business that is supposedly almost belly up? Because he could probably replace his income somewhere else(as if he would need to). Tiltons refusal to sacrifice is acceptable if he performs his job well, why shouldnt the mechanics be held to the same standard?
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Bob, why do you continue to believe that giberish that all UAL pilots make 300K? I've have been here over three years and have yet to break 100K, and it looks as if it will be quite a long time until I do. there is a HUGE diff between the NB payrates (what MOST people fly) and the widebodies. The fact is you may even make MORE as a mechanic next year than I will as an equally experienced (or MORE experienced) pilot. Tilton HAS sacrificed. He left a VERY lucrative career to RISK IT ALL as our CEO. He didn't have anything to do with our current situation, can you HONESTLY say the same? Stop the petty jealousy. I promise to not whine about your paultry 7% paycut, if you'll quite whinning about my 26% paycut. As for all those mechanics jobs that pay sooooo well, why would you stay at UAL if there are soooo many more wonderful jobs out there. Maybe National and Vanguard are hiring.
 
RV4;
Dont you have a Cross burning or a RTW rally to go to?

Tell us how good S-1327 is going to be, from your Conservative Union Member point of veiw of course. Explain to me how Government Regulation of airline industry wages conforms to the princeple of Free Market Capitalism.
 
Bsdrvr;

Now I'm not attacking your rates of pay, I realize that only those with many years get to those levels,your worth every penny you make, the question is could you replace it?

You must have missed that.
I guess I should have waited before the last post, well save it for Seven years and then see how it looks.

How exactly is Tiltin Risking it all? How much will he make this year, whether he succeeds or fails? How much will you or any other worker at UAL earn next year? Mr Tilton will make more in his first year at UAL than any mechanic will in a lifetime. What is his Risk? His reputation? I'm sure that Millions of dollars can make a bruised ego more tolerable.

I dont work at UAL. So I can honestly say that I'm not responsible for UALs condition. I'm here to encourage my fellow mechanics not to accept pay cuts. Is it true that even with your pay cuts you will still be making more than AA pilots? UAL Mechanics will be making 7% less than us, plus the retro.

I have 22 years as a mechanic, 16 years with the present carrier. I'm at the top of my feild now. If I was told to vote on a paycut or else we would go under I would take my chances and vote NO. Why should I beleive them? How many times have we heard this before? In 1982, it was the end for the industry. Deregulation had ushered in the era of the discount carrier and cattlecar air transportation. By 1984 they were making record profits. In 1992 the industry had lost more money than all the profits combined since the start of the industry, by 1993 they were making profits again, by 1995, new records were being set. A lot can happen in 5 years. Who knows what the industry will be like in 2004? The only thing that will be certain is the concessions that you agree to now, while things are at their absolute worst, will still be in place till 2008. If things dont get better they will be back for more, if they get better good luck at getting them to reopen the contract.
 
Busdvr;
I could care less what Corzine said, I care what the Act says and what Bush and Greenspan are doing with it. Mineta- who does he WORK FOR? Democrat, Republican, do you really still beleve that there is a difference when it comes to money?

Veiws on women? I didnt think anyone saw me!
Beeeuurrrp How did you know?

I have children- I dont want to drill in the Artic. I feel that we have a responsibilty towards the next generation. I beleive that we should develop more renewable and non-poluting sources of energy.

Now that you have analized me let me take a poke at analyizing you.

You are a pilot. You feel that your sacrifice should be measured against the life style that you have become accustomed to. You take pride in your profession and you do your best to live up to the image that has had as much to do with the success of pilots wages as their actual skill. You have a bit of money, so you are a Republican. You are in a Union but you prfer to think of it as an Association. Therefore you are unoffended when your fellow Republicans bash Unions, after all they mean everyone else, not pilots. You Love Rush Limbaugh and somehow conveniently blame the Democrats for everything, especially when a handfull of Democrats jump over and vote with 99% of the Republicans on some measure that hurts us. It wasnt the fault of the 200 Republicans that voted for it, it was the fault of the Democrats because those 10 Democrats provided THE votes that were needed to make it pass.
Over the last Ten years Your take home pay has probably more than doubled yet since the rates listed in your contract for the DC3 and the Connies is the same as it was 10 years ago you feel you can legitimately claim that our pay rates are the same as they were 10 years ago.
Go ahead and keep trying to defend what Bush is doing by blaming the Democrats, I suppose when McCain (who is one of yours-Republican Pilot) brings S-1327 back up that will be the Democrats fault. Keep up the Party loyalty, when your fellow Republicrats are done with all those blue collar unions, your next.
 
Bob,

Should all of the USAIR and UAL mechanics quit now and seek employment at other airlines so good union members like yourself wont vote to staple their seniority? That was your position regarding the TWA old timers, does it still hold true for you? Or should they hold out, and see if they get merged and/or acquired by good union men like yourself that only looks out for themselves and will gladly staple them to the bottom of the AA list anyway?

I agree with ual06...
Your panties sure are in a wad
 
FEAR...

FEAR...

FEAR...

The sky is falling...

Never fails, when Bob Owens shows up, the debate degrades to politics and fear.

How disgusting
 
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On 11/21/2002 7:47:04 PM Bob Owens wrote:

RV4;
Dont you have a Cross burning or a RTW rally to go to?

Tell us how good S-1327 is going to be, from your Conservative Union Member point of veiw of course. Explain to me how Government Regulation of airline industry wages conforms to the princeple of Free Market Capitalism.
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I know one thing. I am proud of the job I do and sure dont fear proving my worth to an arbitrator.

Of course, we could all continue to live the big lie and act like the TWU/IAM would strike instead. When was the last successful AFL-CIO Mechanic and Related strike anyway?

In contrast, I thought the AMFA outcome before the evil Bush Presidential Emergency Board was quite sucessful compared to the union you have sworn an oath too.

By the way, RTW passed in Oklahoma well over a year ago and NOT ONE SINGLE union has been eliminated or failed because of it. In fact, I hear the unions are working much harder for the members now. Imagine that?

That whole campaign must have just been another liberal FEARFUL VISION full of lies.
 
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On 11/21/2002 7:41:27 PM Bob Owens wrote:

Bsdrvr;

"Now I'm not attacking your rates of pay, I realize that only those with many years get to those levels,your worth every penny you make, the question is could you replace it?"

You must have missed that.
I guess I should have waited before the last post, well save it for Seven years and then see how it looks.



Actually, i didn't miss it. Whats YOUR level of education other than your SPECIALIZED A&P? How many Mechs are Dr's, Lawyers, nurses, MBA's? I've flown with pilots AND F/As who are ALL of those. I've got papers on my desk at this moment for another job (mil) that would pay me what I make today AND a full retirement in 7 years. I'm an airline pilot, specifically a UNITED AIRLINES PILOT because that's what I want to do. I'm part of the BEST pilot group (well except for those groups with funny names like 539, FQ-50, FQ-75) in the WORLD. I assume you WANT to be an A&P Mechanic? If not go work at the monkey. I think you're fooling yourself if you think there are sooo many other jobs out there. When EAL and Pan Am went out, that capacity was replaced by other hub airlines that had the same staffing rules. Now capacity is being replaced by low fare airlines that have about 1/3rd the number of mechanics per jet. If you lose your job are you going to give Boeing the secret Charlie Bryan handshake? What about the 30,000 workers currently laid off there? YOU'RE DREAMING!!!

How exactly is Tiltin "Risking it all"? How much will he make this year, whether he succeeds or fails? How much will you or any other worker at UAL earn next year? Mr Tilton will make more in his first year at UAL than any mechanic will in a lifetime. What is his Risk? His reputation? I'm sure that Millions of dollars can make a bruised ego more tolerable.


Then you should've been a CEO. You could have faught your way to the top based on your own merit instead of union rules and turned the company around...nah, too much work right? If Tilton returns us to profitability by 2004, he's worth every penny!!!!!

I dont work at UAL. So I can honestly say that I'm not responsible for UALs condition. I'm here to encourage my fellow mechanics not to accept pay cuts. Is it true that even with your pay cuts you will still be making more than AA pilots? UAL Mechanics will be making 7% less than us, plus the retro.


Here's the truth. Prior to our new IAM contract, it could prob been said that YOU made 20% more than UALs mechanics. would it have been fair for YOUR mangement to use the old rates from an expired contract as a baseline to extract concessions from you? A contract soo bad that they went on strike over it in the 90's, but the democratic administration refused to let them continue the strike and encouraged a subpar settlement. The truth is AMR offered it's pilots about 25% more than UALs new contract rates about 1 1/2 ago. The pilots at AMR realize that although they are getting a raw deal, it is inappropriate to demand industry leading wages from your company while it's hemoraging cash and could go BK, even if another workgroup (like the mechanics) already have an ILC. But in any case thank the lord you don't work at UAL.

I have 22 years as a mechanic, 16 years with the present carrier. I'm at the top of my feild now. If I was told to vote on a paycut or else we would go under I would take my chances and vote NO. Why should I beleive them? How many times have we heard this before? In 1982, it was the end for the industry. Deregulation had ushered in the era of the discount carrier and cattlecar air transportation. By 1984 they were making record profits. In 1992 the industry had "lost more money than all the profits combined since the start of the industry", by 1993 they were making profits again, by 1995, new records were being set. A lot can happen in 5 years.

Yep, a lot can happen. An Airline can go BK and liquidate. Thanks to dem Pres Carters Deregulation, how many BK have there been? EAL, Braniff, Pan AM, PE, Air florida, Air South, FRNT 1, West Pac, Midway 1, midway 2, ect ect. Yep you're right, i bet they're bluffing


Who knows what the industry will be like in 2004? The only thing that will be certain is the concessions that you agree to now, while things are at their absolute worst, will still be in place till 2008. If things dont get better they will be back for more, if they get better good luck at getting them to reopen the contract.

We don't know that. Once the loan is repaid, UAL can do whatever it wants. I'm thinking that UAL will want to renegotiate a few of the contracts early. I don't think they want another situation where they have several concessionary contracts expire at the same time. We won't know until the time comes, but hopefully this new guy is wise enough to realize that an early contract is usually cheaper than a late one.
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BobOwens,

With all due respect, what I make is none of your business or anyone else's. I come from the old school mentality where it's simply not polite to ask someone how much they make. However, I can assure you I am by no means breaking the bank. I occupy a low-level management position for UA as an analyst. I'm sure you can do that math on that and get a decent estimate on where my wages fall.

I am not attempting to tell anyone that their level of pay is unimportant. My point was that we don't have to be the highest paid workers in this industry to feel taken care of and rewarded. There are other ways of making your employees feel valued without fattening their wallets.
 
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On 11/21/2002 7:01:52 PM Bob Owens wrote:

Busdvr;
I could care less what Corzine said, I care what the Act says and what Bush and Greenspan are doing with it. Mineta- who does he WORK FOR? Democrat, Republican, do you really still beleve that there is a difference when it comes to money?

Corzine wrote a good bit of the law. A dem writes it, then instructs the ATSB to be hard core about it and suddenly it's a repubs fault?!! I haven't seen that level of logic since a Monty Python movie. I guess very small rocks float to?

You are a pilot. You feel that your sacrifice should be measured against the life style that you have become accustomed to. You take pride in your profession and you do your best to live up to the image that has had as much to do with the success of pilots wages as their actual skill.


No, but I do think that pay rates should reflect the level of responsibility and education/training it takes to reach a certain level. A plastic surgeon may work 5 hours a day four days a week, and golf every afternoon. But he deserves his level of compensation for bringing us his wonderful work and because while you were grab-a$$ing in the lounge, he was studdying for his gross anatomy final.

You have a bit of money Nope! I'm actually still paying for some of my advanced training. Pilots usually don't reach some level of financial security until the late 30's or early 40's. Most don't break 50K until 30 and if they are lucky break 100k around 40-45.

You are in a Union but you prfer to think of it as an Association. Therefore you are unoffended when your fellow Republicans bash Unions,

Not true. we find it offensive when other unions cross picket lines (1985?), and when national unions represent their own perverted interest instead of those people they are hired to represent. that's why we don't have a NWA or DAL representing our interest to the company.

Over the last Ten years Your take home pay has probably more than doubled yet since the rates listed in your contract for the DC3 and the Connies is the same as it was 10 years ago you feel you can legitimately claim that "our pay rates are the same as they were 10 years ago".

I didn't work at UAL ten years ago. I was building experience to get the job. As for payrates, the new payrates for the 737, A320, 757, and 767 are all roughly in line with the payrates in 1994. They HAVE NOT gone up with inflation. Have your rates gone up since 1994? Will the IAM's new rates be higher than in 1994?

Go ahead and keep trying to defend what Bush is doing by blaming the Democrats, I suppose when McCain (who is one of yours-Republican Pilot) brings S-1327 back up that will be the Democrats fault.


McCain usually doesn't vote with the repubs, and he actually has been recruited by Daschle to cross over. Will he suddenly be good in your eyes? A little tip, it doesn't matter what your contract says, when you can't compete because of taxation and exchange rate policies of the Dems, your company will go BK and that check your union put the numbers on will bounce. I've seen it. as for S-1327, it only takes 40 votes to block it FOREVER. all the dems have to do (47-48 of them) is find 40 folks and filibuster. Surely there are some repubs who'll help out. I'll bet tommy won't even try, he'd rather sell you out to have an issue' to run on.


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On 11/21/2002 7:41:27 PM Bob Owens wrote:

I dont work at UAL. So I can honestly say that I'm not responsible for UALs condition. I'm here to encourage my fellow mechanics not to accept pay cuts. Is it true that even with your pay cuts you will still be making more than AA pilots? UAL Mechanics will be making 7% less than us, plus the retro.

I have 22 years as a mechanic, 16 years with the present carrier. I'm at the top of my feild now. If I was told to vote on a paycut or else we would go under I would take my chances and vote NO. Why should I beleive them? How many times have we heard this before? In 1982, it was the end for the industry. Deregulation had ushered in the era of the discount carrier and cattlecar air transportation. By 1984 they were making record profits. In 1992 the industry had "lost more money than all the profits combined since the start of the industry", by 1993 they were making profits again, by 1995, new records were being set. A lot can happen in 5 years. Who knows what the industry will be like in 2004? The only thing that will be certain is the concessions that you agree to now, while things are at their absolute worst, will still be in place till 2008. If things dont get better they will be back for more, if they get better good luck at getting them to reopen the contract.
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Bob,
I tend to agree with the others here. You either have a short position or you don't want to take a decrease in pay because the indutry standard will be lowered if we do.
You really have a lot of nerve trying to sway votes in an airline you don't work for.
If the decision was really yours, I doubt you would be saying the same thing. It is so easy to talk when you are not faced with decisions that could affect the rest of your life.

I heard a joke which fits here.
2 Guys were riding down the road and were pulled over. The cop comes up and hits the driver and asks for his registration and license. After giving him a ticket, the cop goes around to the other side and hits the passenger.
The passenger asks why, and the cop replies.
I did it because I wanted to give you your wish. The guy asks what he is talking about? The cop replies; You wouldn't have gotten a block from here and you would have said to your friend.
I wish he would have done that to me.

It is easy to make statments when you don't have to back them up. You should have applied yourself and became more than a mechanic. You would have made a very good lawyer.

Please go back to your own airline and leave ours alone. We have enough to think about and want to hear from employees who have something at stake here.
 
Can any pilots and f/a's tell me if your total percentage cut is
totally restored at the end of your new erp's ? I have heard that for
both groups the total percentage is restored at the end of your new
contract's.I have been asking around about how people feel about the
new deal and one of the big things mechanics say is we are still
not fully restored to what we would have been making had there not
been this new erp.Also people are questioning why we need to give
UAL such a long contract.Aviation is cyclical and we may be making
profits lets say in a year or year in a half.Why not a shorter contract
and if UAL is profitable we could go back to our old contract.If it isnt
we stay with the erp's for all groups until it is.I know how I'm going
to vote,but I think maybe many people(mechs)will not.Its going to be
a very interesting time ahead.
 
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