IAM in T/A - Now we need ratification and the loan

[Bob Owens]

BSDVR;
What was the system wide load factor prior to 911?

From what I remember things were slow, you can look up the exact numbers just as handly as I.

Do you think there aren't some flights that still have a similar LF?

There might be.

Do you think it possible that those flights came in the night before with 85% LF?

Possible? Yes.

why do you think they chose those particular flights?

Because they would have a heavy fuel load.

Your getting a little off subject. The issue is whether UAL workers should agree to accept wage cuts until the year 2008. To me its a little extreme to accept such long term cuts in order to deal with a cyclical event. If 9-11 had not happened the airlines would still be in a similar position. This isnt that different than 1982 or 1992. 9-11 did not in itself trigger the recession, it may have made it more intense but if we continue to blame it all on 9-11 we will be no closer to finding the real cause. Here in NY we took the brunt of the attack, most dont talk about it much, the site is now just a big hole in the ground, its time to move on, the people of NY have. If NY recovered in less than 1 year I doubt its going to take the Airlines five years to recover. If you give in to this you will never financially recover. If I'm correct by the end of this contract, in 2008 you will be back to what you are making today, the problem is that the average annual inflation rate is around 3%. That means you will be making 18% less than you are today in real dollars. If S-1327 is in place everyone else will be brought down to your rate before 2008 and your future raises even if the company is making huge profits will be capped at the CPI. Its easy for a lot of nameless, management types who refuse to reveal themselves to put the push on this, in two years when the company is making record profits and your profit sharing doesnt even come close to making up for your concessions they will never stand up and admit that they were for the concessions. I havent seen one person thats for the concessions reveal their real names, they hide behind aliases so the can deny what they are saying today.

 

[Bob Owens]

UAL777FLYER;
If your wages at UA are comparable to the wages at AA why are your unit costs higher? Obviuosly wages are not the problem, nor will they be the solution. TWA had the lowest wages in the industry, loook where it got them, Peoples Express when it was around had very low wages, where are they? While AA continues to drive down its unit costs without paycuts what has UA done? This means that UA may have to come back for more. Maybe you and your secret salary can absorb the cut. I guess you make enough, but as a mechanic, I know what my fellow mechanics make and I know that in the high cost of living areas if they have to take a paycut productivity will go down. As mechanics are forced to take on second jobs once again to make ends meet they will show up to work tired and unenthused. How much is lost on just one cancelled flight? I would guess a lot more than a mechanic makes in an entire year.

 

[UnitedChicago]

Bob Owens:

My salary is none of your business.

And I am legally changing my name to Mr. United Chicago. No middle name.

 

[Bob Owens]

hommegros;
Seems to me that your grip is a little too tight. You need to ease up there boy before you hurt yourself.

 

[Bob Owens]

BSDVR;

SWA opened a concessionary contract EARLY and negotiated a new contract that expire later. That's the point. Why would you just open the contract and have it still expire on the same date? What part are you having trouble understanding?

What part are you having trouble understanding? Of course a company would gladly open up a contract during hard economic times, good luck getting them to open it up during the good times when they got concessionary contracts in place. You alluded to the fact that if the company prospers they could open the contract up early and restore wages. I don’t know what planet you were on in the 90s; I guess you were too deep into the books getting that MBA, well welcome to the real world College Boy.

You made the statement that I should talk to an MBA.

I made several statements that you failed to address.

Discussing Economics with you is about the same as telling Castro about the benefits of capitalism. You honestly don't exhibit even a basic understanding of supply and demand or market forces.

There is a lot more to the equation than just Supply and Demand and Market Forces. Things are not as simple as it was taught in your Microeconomics class.

“I'd have more luck teaching astrophysics to a 3 year old.â€

So now you’re qualified to teach astrophysics too? Wow, you sure are impressive. Then why can’t you just answer a few statements from the “Great unwashed� Instead you go off on a tangent.

“ If anyone doubts it, all they have to do is read you diatribe in Just conversation where you advocate lowering the maximum workweak to 32 hours.â€

Did I say workweak? Guess I should have used spell check. What’s wrong with the 32-hour workweek? You will probably use the same arguments that those who were opposed to the 40-hour workweek used. Supply and Demand, we supply labor so its in our best interests to limit that supply. Just as businesses use legislation to further their interests so should workers.

“ News flash Bob, Communism Doesn't Workâ€

I would have thought that someone with an MBA could come up with something better than redbaiting. You must be getting desperate. No wonder you post under an alias, your alma mater would probably demand that you don’t tell anyone what school gave it to you.

 

[johnny gearpin]

unitedchicago writes, Prove me wrong...give me some facts that you can back up. (regarding Untied.com)

I seen for myself the airplane with 'Untied Airlines' 757 doctored on it in our maintenance facility. The same place where the photo was taken. We all got a kick out of it...since we were getting kicked in the groin daily at that phase of negotiations.

 

[wts54]

UnitedChicago,I gave you your answer.Call
Bill Norman yet,the FAA?I didnt think so.
I,m waiting for your reply.Have you called
the mechanic in the example I gave you?

 

[UnitedChicago]

johnny gearpin:

That's your answer to my challenge to provide tangible, credible information? A 757 with a doctored logo? How does a piece of aluminum back up the claims made in regard to information on untied.com?

Oh and how nice to provide more fodder for that jack ass.

 

[wts54]

You asked for proof now you want to
ignore it and say I was wrong to give it
to you because I missed the point we were
debating.okay ignore the proof if you wish.
I thought you werent serious anyway.Yes
politicians and others frequently quote
statistics from other sources.The facts
speak for themselves but you can ignore
them.

 

[UnitedChicago]

wts54:

I'm not going to call anyone. You're completely missing my point. If you want to debate a topic, you can't make statements, attribute them to a hate website and then respond by saying talk to so and so. They'll back me up. My friend...that's just not how debating works. Do you think politicians when pressed to provide data would say...hey all Johnny Doe...he'll back me up? I don't think so.

Why don't you do us all a favor and just drop it. Or how about suggesting to untied.com add a message board so you can go ramble on over there.

I hope to put this silly, waste of time debate to bed by not responding to any more posts you place regarding this topic.

 

[Bob Owens]

WTS54;
Bob,have any thoughts about why they are charging such low
fares?Maybe this crisis is somewhat manufactured to slow down
and or reverse employees wages at the major carriers.I have a
gut feeling management of all the airlines are in this together.

WTS54;
I think the Crisis is real, not manufactured but perhaps enhanced.
One of the posters mentioned The Air Conference or Aircon.org. While Unitedchicago refutes any conspiracy to lower wages the facts show that he is flat out wrong. Air con does exist, every major carrier is a member and their mission statement is to lower airline wages. If the airlines got together and formed an organization like this to fix prices it would be illegal but there is no law against conspiring to fix wages. According to Author Tom Petzinger (Hard Landing) airline executives have a yearly meeting at some ranch where there are no minutes taken or recorded. Who knows what they are saying? We already know some of the extremes that airlines will go through to gain the upper hand on Labor. At AA I saw the company fly empty airplanes to try and defeat the Flight Attendants, then saw them violate the contract with the pilots in the Reno deal, and then saw them shut down all operations out of JFK basically because the mechanics hurled insults and sugested that the executives commit vile acts upon themselves when they tried to sell the contract proposal they had submitted to negotiations that morning. I could only imagine what has gone on over at United.
Aircon exists for one purpose, to help the airlines coordinate their efforts at lowering wages. Their primary target is the pilots. I attended an Industrial Relations Research Association Conference in Washington DC. The topic was Airline Labor Relations. While several disturbing things were brought up I'd like to mention a breif encounter that I had with an AirCon representative. During a break in the conference a man, I beleive his name was Robert DeLucia came to the table where I was sitting and introduced himself to two representatives from Worldwide Aviation. He said Im the guy who gives you all the information to scare away your unions. I still just sat their and listened in. THen he abruptly started making comments about Pilot pay-(I dont think Worldwide has any pilots) and about how something has to be done about it, that it was keeping the airlines from really making money, etc. At this point I had to cut in and bring up the point that very few pilots actually made those top numbers, that their job is high risk and that they spend a lot of money to become a pilot. I mentioned executive salaries and the lack of justification for those figures. His reply was the typical, oh well there are only a few executives so even though they make millions it doesnt matter. The conversation started getting heated and he scampered away.
Another thing that was brought up at the conference was the administrations position regarding labor in the airline industry. I beleive the Bush representatives name was Badillo. He said that the administrations position was that wages would be suppressed with government assistance to provide cheap airfares to the consumer. He appeared to be aiming at the commuter airlines at the time but as we see they are now going after all of us.
Fact- the ATSB is made up of two cabinet members and is chaired by the Federal reserve board. The Fed has a history of trying to suppress wages by trying to maintain a minimum level of unemployment. This President has been the most Anti-labor President ever.
The ATSB is an attempt by this administration to scare people into accepting wage cuts. The ATSB is supposed to stabilize the industry, instead they are trying to make it a very profitable business, at the expense of the workers. Its demand for a 7% ROI is unheard of, its unreasonable and goes way beyond the intent of the Act. If the airlines could produce such profits there would be no need for the ATSA. The whole thing is a charade to get you to accept long term concessions. Its one thing to try and guarantee that the loan will be repaid, its another to try and extract profits at rates that the industry never earned over a sustained period of time. Once the long term labor concessions are in place, prices will rise, all the other suppliers will renegotiate their deals and labor will have been suckered once again.

Do I think that the airlines are selling their tickets for less than they could? Yes. Why not? If they lose money for two years but are able to set our wages back ten years its worth it. Just look at the performance of the industry since 1978. Whenever they lose money, then gain concessions, they come back and make more money than ever before. We have gone through this cycle twice before, in 1982 and 1992. Go to the ATA website and look at the Financial metrics page. There is nothing illegal about all the airlines getting together to lower prices in order to break labor. In fact we have an administration in power that has had close relations with the Union buster of them all-Frank Lorenzo.

Unitedchicago will try and dismiss or debunk this but for all we know about him he might work for AirCon. Even if he denies it, how do we check, since after all he wont beleive anything that anyone else says unless they offer proof? Why should we beleve him? How credible a source is he that he hides under an alias. I exist. My name is there and there are loads of people out there on these websites that know me. For all we know Unitedchicago could be Robert DeLucia out here doing his job putting out all that information to scare away the unions.

 

[RV4]

Bob Owens,

I do not think it will take passage of S-1327 to require others to match these paycuts!

Also, never forget, many of the UAL cuts are aleady available at AA thanks to the TWU.

4 Days vacation pay = Maintenance Base closure 5 days Flex buying of 5 vacation days.

7% cut in pay = Still doesnt match the average wage at AA given SRP/OSM scams and JR Mechanic progession.

Payout for medical = Did you look at your prescription drug program for 2003?

Therefore the sky is NOT falling and the boogie man is not after us, he already caught us along time ago!

 

[Bob Owens]

RV4
I wont dispute the other issues but on the Vacation issue you are misleading.

4 Days vacation pay = Maintenance Base closure 5 days Flex buying of 5 vacation days.

The United workers are losing vacation time. Your forced Christmas/New years Vacation can be taken without pay, or you can use one of your credited weeks, or use Flex which is the same as without pay because the company extracts a fraction of the pay for that week out of every check if you choose that option. For the life of me and most of the other guys on the line stations we cant understand why anyone would cry about having to take this week off. Christmas is the first week that closes out on our vacation bid every year. I would guess that the majority of workers at Tulsa also are in favor of spending the holidays with family.

But then again what does this have to do with UAL accepting a pay cut? Are you in favor of them accepting cuts? Do you feel that we will be unaffected by what happens there? If the boogie man has indeed got us what do you propose that we do about it? Roll over and surrender our fate to Dubya and McCain?

 

[Bob Owens]

George;
Thanks.
UC wont even give you his name.I guess he is afraid of exposure.
Good luck.

 

[wts54]

Thank you George sorry I got your first name wrong.
Thanks for standing up for our craft when the hollow men
would have compromise your beliefs.
Here is a thing a lady from sfo sent me:

WHY WE MUST VOTE NO!

IT’S OUR FUTURE AT STAKE



According to the IAM leaders we must give massive wage and benefit concessions to “save†United Airlines. Our six-month contract, they say, must be torn up and extended another 2 1/2 years before “snapping back†to our current 2002 wages in 2008.



The new revised contract is a DISASTER for all members of District 141M and District 141. For mechanics, it will mean a loss of $58,323 over the term of the contract. It will not save one job or prevent a Chapter 11 bankruptcy filing. In truth, it will oil the wheels for CEO Tilton to choose the time and day to go into bankruptcy court.



The heart of the rotten pact is clearly outlined in “Exhibit E†of the Recovery Plan. It states that “in the event of a war in Iraq or a sudden unforeseen event that substantially disrupts air travel (e.g., an act of God, act or threat of terrorism, etc.)†the entire agreement is “null and void.†Then United’s Board of Directors can implement its own draconian recovery plan.



Does anyone truly doubt the intentions of President Bush when he says the US faces a permanent “threat of terrorism?†Or that a war with Iraq is not inevitable?



Tilton will use our lower wages and four lost vacation days as the starting point to get more concessions from us. There will be new work rules, outsourcing of jobs, loss of receipt and dispatch and possible closure of maintenance bases.



The promises of “profit sharing,†“stock options†and improved pensions are the sugar toppings on a poison pill to get our “yes†vote. The IAM officials know full well that the company will attempt to tear up even this concessionary pact if we easily roll over and surrender without a fight. Their hope is that the ATSB and an “act of God†will save them and us.



The IAM and other unions’ leaders are running scared. And Tilton knows it. There will be no divine intervention. It is up to us to stand together against concessions.



We are better off saying NO to concessions and taking our chances in the bankruptcy court. The playing field will be more level between us and the other creditors. The judge could even decide to have a trustee oversee UAL’s executives – as occurred at World Com against management’s will – and take other steps to investigate past accounting and other possible corrupt practices. Remember Enron.



Let’s be frank: our billions of givebacks under the ESOP have never been accounted for. The same management team that is responsible for the financial crisis—James Goodwin, Rono Dutta and Andy Studdert et al—continues to get large pensions and even office space while we lose pay and jobs.



Our future is at stake. The revised contract is a gift to those who put UAL in its current shape. We must Stand United and VOTE NO!



By Jennifer Biddle (SFOOV) and Malik Miah (SFOEC) for AMTs Against Concessions. AMTs Against Concessions is an ad hoc group of rank and file mechanics against concessions and layoffs.