Identifying

[sweetlilsky]

I am asking this in reference to one occasion where a controller once asked me if I had my traffic in sight... though it was a Dh8 and apparently we were both travelling North, I was told he was at my 12 o'clock position, and I certainly could not have caught up to him in my little Cessna 152. 😛 Makes me laugh. But anyways, even though my "traffic" was far ahead, I couldn't help but wonder - if it had been something much less familiar to me...

How important is it to be able to tell the difference between the various models of Cessna Citations, Dh8s, etc...? More importantly, how do you do it? What if the gear is up and you have a view from behind? Honestly.

I am still a low-time pilot, just flying single engine Cessnas and Pipers, but apparently everyone else in the same position seems to be able to tell the difference between a 100 and 300 model of anything and anything (and I don't mean recognizing an F28 and a DC10 between a choice of the two, I mean differentiating between an X model Cessna Citation and a Citation 500).

I can see how knowing the difference between different models of aircraft would help for the purposes of identifying traffic, but is it really necessary to know the details of how to describe a Beoing 737-300 vs. a Beoing 737-400? It's not like you get close enough to them in the air (or have the time really) to spot the differences do you? And if you do it's probably pretty scary... but I don't recall ever hearing ATC list the exact specifications of each aircraft (save the model) when advising you of traffic.

The guys in my ground school class baffled me when they were able to say that so and so picture of something is a 300 model vs. a 100 because of "this". How do you guys know this? Is the only way to look at a million pictures and minutely note the tiny differences in an effort to internalize them, or is there some book or some resource you use to help you find this out?

And practically speaking, what do you do about the need to recognize these soaring beauties at different angles? Then you definitely need more than one picture of each...

 

[Laser]

Don't worry; there is no practical requirement for a pilot to be able to visually distinguish between various models of the same aircraft type. It may be a neat party trick, but has little real utility.

 

[412driver]

don't take this wrong, but you must be a girl........................... 😀

at a car show:

i say: "WHOA.....look at that!!!"
wife says: "What? The red car?"
i say: "ya, the 69 camaro z28, runnin' a 12 bolt rear end, probably has 4.11's and has the original zapper 302 engine"
wifes says: "oh, like the white one beside it?"
i say: "nooooo, THAT one is a 68........."
wife says: "white ....red.....whatever................"

walking through "linen and things":

wife says: "oh look, these tapestries will really enhance the trim on the front windows"
i say: "what, our windows? use the red stuff".
Wife: "we can't use that! it clashes with the armoir"
i say: "we have an armoir?" :wacko:


in the air, if atc calls a boeing at 3 o'clock it's a boeing. they ain't gonna call it a boeing 737-700 ect. keep your head up and eyes out and have fun.

 

[Blackmac]

412 Driver;

I believe you are right, right up to the last paragraph.

You forgot to mention that ATC knows the type of aircraft. whereas the average private pilot does not necessarily have the same knowledge, ATC just assumes everybody has the same knowledge as them.

Aircraft should be referred to as small, medium or large, jet, turbo prop or piston and last but not least, speed.

Pilots should not hesitate to ask any questions from the controller that they think are relevant.

Should the controller be a smart-ass, as some are, report the sob.

Remeber, he is on the ground and if you have no idea what he talking about, it becomes a safety issue.

Do not under any circumstance, be intimidated by the controller, if you do not understand what is going on, land as soon as possible and find out what is going on.

All conversation between you and the controller is on tape, so there will be no argument as to who said what.

You are the PIC of your aircraft, the ATC is there to provide you with information and traffic advisory.

Anybody from ATC wish to comment, feel free.


Cheers, Don

 

[412driver]

ya, you're right....

my point is they usually don't get into details ( -300, -400 ect.) i wasn't really clear on that, rather just calling it what it is......737, 757, dash 8 ect.

"Aircraft should be referred to as small, medium or large, jet, turbo prop or piston and last but not least, speed."

absolutely!! wake turbulence being the factor there.....

 

[sweetlilsky]

Hey 412Driver, I guess you're right, it probably is a guy thing...

Thanks everyone for your replies makes me feel better for the times my dad tries to "help" me with this and asks "what's that?", I'll say a Boeing 737 and he'll say "no, it's a Boeing 747". Then 2 seconds later he will ask "and what's that?", then I'll reply "it's a Boeing 747", and he'll shake his head and say "it's a Boeing 737"... Ah, but to have your youngest daughter follow in your footsteps, priceless. 😛

 

[tDawe]

Sweetlilsky,

Hopefully there isn't that many airplanes in your imeadiate vicinity that differentiating between them is important.. might be a tad crowded then.

Like most pilots, the only way to learn all the different types of A/C is to spend way more time hanging around the airport then would be deemed normal by anyone not involved in aviation.

Depending on the number of students in the air (theres quite a few of them here at YKZ) tower will sometimes point out traffic as "faster moving twin" "highwing" or "amphib" etc.

Usually for me the only type of airplane Im worried about is that thar one in front what keeps gettin' bigger...

tDawe

 

[Old Dog Flying]

Don made a staterment that ATC folk know all about the aircraft that they are working. Not so!

As a retired controller, I've seen a marked change in the younger controllers who basically know very little about aircraft identification or the performance numbers as well. The average controller will gradually get to know something of the types after years of working them, but usually by the idents of the locally based aircraft.

Some controllers are very good at type/performance recognition but these are in the minority. There is very little training done in this area as can be seen when one of our youger types tells a Pitts S2B to "Keep it in tight behind the C150 on final".... with the resulting go around due to speed differential.

If you want to be able to identify aircraft, there is no better way than to buy a pocket sized edition of Janes Aircraft. Also helpful is to read aviation magazines but be careful, not all you read is safe or acceptable.

As a controller, I have trained a great many new controllers and have taught them about the need for basic knowledge of aircraft types and performances and as a retired flight instructor I've also taugh situational awareness and to be on guard against ill informed instructions because both pilots and controllers are human and mistakes are made.

Old Dog Flying

 

[sharkbait]

Oh Yeah:
What is the most often heard call to an IFR Helicopter " Keep the speed up - keep the speed up- Keep the speed up...."
All this as you are proceeding down hill @ VNE with everthing wide open but the tool box and have briefed " we'll get the gear in the flare".
It has got to the point my call sign has become "Tower Helicopter XYZ on final we'll keep the speed up."
Of course if you are in a 212 vs a 76 keeping the speed up means a whole 10 knot increase which ain't much help to anyone.
I can still remember doing an practice approach at Trenton in a 172 at night as number one in front of 2 130's a Buff and a 707.
Atc to C-130 " Yer traffic a Cessna 172 on final 12 o'clock 2 miles He is a student from Kingston and will be overshooting back to Kingston.."
C-130 to ATC "Rog - we check the beer can. Ah---If we get too close we'll go around - my co-joe needs the practice!" I overshot - he landed behind me but I swear you could read the approach plate in his landing lights.
Ah the good old daze.
My point - didn't have one.
Have a good weekend everone.

 

[Old Dog Flying]

Sharkbait...I hear you on that one. It's usually keep the speed up land on the numbers and make the first turnoff...even if that turnoff is only a stones throw down the runway.

And that heavy iron up the butt routine...going into Kelowna one sunny day in a Aviat Husky and a BAE146 on base. The taxiway off the runway is a long way away and the controller insisting that I was number one "cleared to land" with the kerosene convertor making a lot more knots than me. I suggested that I might go around and let the 146 land first only to catch S#$% from the young lady in the tower.

BS sez I, poke the power to the Husky and crank hard left...of course I let my feelings known, the 146 thanked me and I was given a few words for my transgression...only I knew as a Controller and PIC that I had the last word.

Life is fun after retirement

Barney

 

[sweetlilsky]

I just remembered something about actuallying going to visit towers to get clarification on things. I used to do that and ask my silly questions like "so and so flying school says you need to stay at circuit height (which parallels the downwind) for so and so type of departures at this airport, while this other school says you need to keep climbing above it - what do we do?". Then the airtraffic controllers in their wisdom would tell me what we were actually supposed to do.

The last time I got permission to visit a tower in BC was two years ago, now it's not allowed. Can someone tell me why that is? and please don't say it's a 9/11 issue because clearly this was a policy set in place long after that.

It was just so useful and interesting because they would show you how their radars worked and the information they received from transponders and etcetera and how the system worked.

So you do you address to have this changed - transport or NavCanada?

 

[412driver]

not sure about where you are training, but at yxx with every batch of students, one ground school includes a trip to the tower. we call up and nicely ask for permission and it has always been granted.

i find it to be a very important step for the students and find their radio work improves dramatically when they can put a face to the voice.....

 

[Winnie]

Yeah, "oh, that's only that little fool in the tower today" 😀 😀

(as opposed to the big ##c#-###d!)

Self censored!

412D the instructor refresher is in Penticton at the end of Oct 2004 (AIC5/04) 😀

 

[Old Dog Flying]

Winnie: That works both ways and most drivers really have no idea who is at the other end of the mike. Frequently I was accused of giving some poor misunderstood person S#$% for his/her dumb actions...even though I was no where near the tower.

Not too long ago I was looking around Langley, saw 3 guys in an open hangar discussing an RV-6 so I stopped to take a peak . The older guy, the builder was proud of his work and after 10 minutes of talking to him, he started in about a certain controller at ZBB...and the language used to describe the controller would get me banned from this site.

After listening to him for a few minutes, I asked him if he would recognize the tower voice and he again went into orbit about that F*&^$%^ B#$@^%& from ZBB...all because he had tried entering the CZ the wrong way and was told to check his CFS.

I then introduced myself as that F&^%*&^ B$#%#$& from the tower and informed him that I had not worked for several months during his ordeal and that maybe he should get his facts straight because a slander suit was very expensive.

He refused to back down insisting he was right.

Thankfully there are few of this type in the aviation community...

Barney

 

[Winnie]

Old Dog Flying, you are very correct! I have myself been that stupid putz who got it wrong, three times in a row!!

But I'm all sorted out right now thank you!

I also would back down, but hey, we're just human...

As for the rest of it, I guess just as you have stupid controllers, you also have stupid pilots... 😀