I'm Undecided

[Leading Edge]

I know that twu has lied on many flyers recently and this is bad.

I know that amfa has higher pay but more laidoff members but not sure it is the unions fault.

I know that twu has very low industry pay and a long list of conecssions and had voting problems.

I know that amfa is not alf-cio and the twu loves politics and not sure why politicians will ever help me.

What I don't know is what is best for the industry mechanic future.

Why don't both sides quit slamming with the negative postings and tell me the undecided mechanic that is looking for anwers why your union of choice will be better for the industry of mechanics?

This is all I want to know before I have to vote on a ballot.

And I will tell you this, the first union that post negative issues about the other instead of answering this question will lose my support and vote automatically. Do any of you think you can handle this?

 

[PRINCESS KIDAGAKASH]

Leading Edge,

It is very difficult to discuss union matters without getting negative. I wish it wasn't that way,but it is. All I can tell you is: THE AIRCRAFT MECHANIC PROFESSION IS DYING. This is not being negative ,it is just a fact. AMFA supporters want our profession to be restored to what it should be. A high paying,highly respected job with good benefits. AMFA supporters also feel that the TWU is not the union to accomplish this goal. AMFA supporters want a change and we feel the only way we will get that change is with AMFA.

 

[twuer]

Leading Edge,

It's easy to lay side by side the differences in the twu and amfa without being negative. The difference in philosophies are still very easy to pick out. Even beyond philosophy the reality of success with regards to job protection, pay, benefits and all the things that a union is intended to provide is glaringly evident in terms of success. As you know the airline industry suffered immensly due to the terrorist attacks of 9-11. The TWU took the position to negotiate a restructuring agreement that would not allow the outsourcing of our work to third party contracters or overseas facilities which would cause the lay off of thousands of workers. In short the TWU chose to represent all of the workers.

It is well known and stated many times throughout these boards and the industry that your contract is only as good as your ability to enforce it. Specifically with regards to the aircraft mechanic profession, due to the restructuring agreement, less A&P mechanics at AA lost their jobs compared with other airlines, thereby preserving their profession. This is particularly important because we know that the jobs lost at their carriers have been outsourced to third party contracters and to overseas vendors and those jobs will never return to the workers who reside at the airlines who chose to outsource them. This is where the reality sets in. The TWU believes that in order to preserve the profession effectively it is important to keep mechanics on the payroll in order that the companies will not outsource their work.

To specifically answer your question as to what's better for the industry and for the mechanics who work in it, when you have thousands of layoffs of aircraft mechanics several bad things happen. One, the market becomes saturated with aircraft mechanics willing to do aircraft work for less pay at the third party facilities that do the very same work as the airlines that laid them off. Two, the third party facilities that hire these laid off employees pay wages that are half as much, provide their families with less benefits and they are competing for and performing the very same work that they did as an airline mechainc. Three, layoffs also effect the retirement pension benefits of the very craft that we are trying to protect. Four, the twu feels that it would have been irresponsible to have thousands of workers take a 100% pay cut instead of being the union brothers and sisters that we profess to be by not protecting their jobs.

In short, nobody is currently enjoying the requirements of the restructuring agreement, however it was better than the alternative option that would have affected thousands of families to a much greater degree.

I apologize for going on so the way I have but to me these issues are very important ones. I understand your dilema in making a conscious choice as to who's best for the mechanic. There are many conflicting reports generated on both sides. I just go with what proof I have in terms of "protecting the profession". Like I said at the very beginning of my post the TWU and AMFA have different philosophies and practices, if you will, of what is best for the mechanic.

Good luck in making your decision. . .

 

[PRINCESS KIDAGAKASH]

twuer,

How far down will the twu negotiate our wages and benefits before it says enough is enough? It was AMFA that took it all the way to the PEB,STRIKE and got us our much needed wage boost in 2001, so you can't claim the twu got us that one. The contract extension in 1991 only got back some of the things the twu had given up previously in 1983,1989. The only reason the company wanted that extension was to stop all of it's younger mechanics from leaving and going to other much higher paying jobs at other airlines, since AA wages were at the bottom of the industry and still are.

 

[Checking it Out]

Leading Edge, I have been in the profession many years, I would like to retire at AA along with my fellow Brothers and Sisters. One only has to read all the positive remarks in the industry over the last several months to see the difference in representation. Whether it be the vision 2025 in Tulsa or the over paid management in NY. The TWU goes to great lengths to represent all the members in all classifications. It could be a building cleaner or technician it doesn’t matter.

The stage has been set and we have to live with it. The wages have been established in the industry by the low cost carriers and the over abundance of available work force. The Technicians at AA are above Industry standards in Wages and Retirement. The difference is as Twuer point out is the TWU believes we are All Brothers and Sisters within. We believe we all need to benefit. Not just the high senior members. The Brother with the 5-year seniority has the right to feed his family with decent wages and benefits. Do we allow him to go to the street? No! We want that Brother to have the same rights as we enjoy with the decisions we made last year. That is to be able to retire with a company that will survive for the long term.

If you have noticed, many low cost carriers have come and gone and we will see more in the future. The Unions at AA choose to dictate their own destiny while others choose to go down with the sinking ship. If you look at AA we do not have to wait for an over paid attorney to decide for us.

The choice is clear; the TWU is much better in representing and has a much better track record in the political and arbitration world. The language is more important in the long-term than the short-term gains! You have to pick and choose delicately in today’s environment or you may end up losing for the long term.

Thanks and Have a Great Day!

 

[Thrustfuljet]

Do you want a craft specific union, where every dime, every nickle, and every thought, of every second of the day is about promoting this craft. Or do you want a larger union, and hope that those resources float your way?

 

[Hopeful]

BETTER AT NEGOTIATING?????????????????????????


YOU'RE A RIOT, CIO!


MAYBE YOU'RE RIGHT!

THE TWU IS BETTER AT NEGOTIATING CONTRACTS DOWNWARD!

I GUESS YOU DON'T MISS THE WEEK'S VACATION, $20,000/ YR IN SALARY, SICK TIME, IOD, HOLIDAY PAY, DOUBLE TIME!


YES, YOU ARE RIGHT, CIO!

GOOD DEFENSE!

DO SCOTT PETERSON AND MICHAEL JACKSON A FAVOR!
STAY OFF THEIR DEFENSE TEAM, YOU'RE A BETTER WITNESS FOR THE PROSECUTION THAN THE DEFENSE!

 

[PRINCESS KIDAGAKASH]

TWUer or CIO,

When are you gonna answer my question? How much further down is the twu going to negotiate our wages and benefits before the twu says enough is enough?

 

[twuer]

TWUer or CIO,

When are you gonna answer my question? How much further down is the twu going to negotiate our wages and benefits before the twu says enough is enough?

With all due respect Princess I am trying to uphold the wishes of the person who started this thread and make no negative comments.

Why don't you start your own topic and we can start over there.

 

[Leading Edge]

So let me get this right.

The twu thinks larger is better and regardless of the wage and benefit reduction as long as more are employed then this is best for the mechanic profession. And the twu thinks that all workers in one union will somehoe serve my interest the best.

And the amfa supporter is the first to fire the negative shot across the board to prove their point.

I think you both suck and the mechanic needs a better choice than either the twu or amfa.

I dont think bigger is better and dont believe that a reduction in pay and benefits at the companys demand is best for the mechanic profession.

And i also dont see where amfa supporters can follow instructions and keep the points in a pro mechanic positive direction.

Is there an option on the ballot for me to just vote non-union? I am still undecided.

 

[twuer]

So let me get this right.

The twu thinks larger is better and regardless of the wage and benefit reduction as long as more are employed then this is best for the mechanic profession. And the twu thinks that all workers in one union will somehoe serve my interest the best.

And the amfa supporter is the first to fire the negative shot across the board to prove their point.

I think you both suck and the mechanic needs a better choice than either the twu or amfa.

I dont think bigger is better and dont believe that a reduction in pay and benefits at the companys demand is best for the mechanic profession.

And i also dont see where amfa supporters can follow instructions and keep the points in a pro mechanic positive direction.

Is there an option on the ballot for me to just vote non-union? I am still undecided.

I am sorry you feel that way Edge.

But I have to say that it sounds as if you have made your mind up regardless of what we tell you.

I wish you the best of luck in your choice anyway!

 

[Checking it Out]

Leading edge, you need to understand part of representing is looking at the long term! If the professionals hired made a determination! Than how can you dispute the facts! We here at AA made a decision not to enter into BK! We made a decission to fight during the Good Times and allow AA to become a force in the Industry! In turn we will reap the benifits in the long term! Yes we all suffered! But we are still employed and the members on layoff have an oppurtunity to return! Unlike the 145,000 in the industry who have lost! Go and fill out an application to see if and when you might be hired at one of the majors!

The majority made a decission! That is what democracy is about!

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

The majority made a decission! That is what democracy is about!

cio, were your fingers burning when you typed the above post? What does the twu know about democracy? I never was given a revote. Is that your version of democracy is all about?

 

[Bob Owens]

Undecided;

The issue here is do you feel that your skills and abilities put you in the classification of a craftsman?

Did you invest you own money, time and use your own initiative to aquire those skills?

If you said yes to those questions then let me ask you this, who do you think would think those skills are worth more?

An organization that exists solely to represent skilled people such as yourself. An organization that was founded by and run by people with the same background and concerns?
Or an organization that will accept and try to represent anybody who will pay them dues? An organization that is run by people who never even worked in this industry?

AMFAs philosophy is that we posess a valuable skill and we should be paid accordingly. This philosphy is prevelent in craft unions.

AMFAs goal is to unite all aircraft mechanics across the industry into one craft union. To make it so that our wages are not the means to which one airline can gain a competative edge over another.

Basically what we want to get through AMFA is the same thing that most skilled workers already have. A union that will fight for and promote the craft. A craft that we have all made a substantial investment in. Pilots have their own union, so do Flight Attendants, Plumbers, electricians, and numerous other crafts.

Our decision to want to form our own union is no more elitist and selfish than our decision to go to school to learn our craft was. Are all the AFL-CIO affiliated Craft Unions selfish and elitist?

The fact is, as Princess has pointed out, this is a dying career. Look at the graph on the AAmechanics pay vs CPI page. Keep in mind that the graph only reflects mainly lost wages, most of the lost benifits and work rule changes are not figured in to the graph. As you will see on the graph this has been a long slow decline. Tewnty years in the making. Efforts to make change fromn within have been and are likely to be fruitless. Our profession, if it is ever going to be restored to what it once was, a rewarding, remunerative career, needs special focused attention. The kind of attention that can only be aquired in a union that can focus on our profession.

So basically the issue here is do we stay on the current path as illustrated on the graph, or do we try something else? Do we cling to the side of a sinking ship or do we swim to shore?

 

[Bob Owens]

So let me get this right.

The twu thinks larger is better and regardless of the wage and benefit reduction as long as more are employed then this is best for the mechanic profession. And the twu thinks that all workers in one union will somehoe serve my interest the best.

And the amfa supporter is the first to fire the negative shot across the board to prove their point.

I think you both suck and the mechanic needs a better choice than either the twu or amfa.

I dont think bigger is better and dont believe that a reduction in pay and benefits at the companys demand is best for the mechanic profession.

And i also dont see where amfa supporters can follow instructions and keep the points in a pro mechanic positive direction.

Is there an option on the ballot for me to just vote non-union? I am still undecided.

Leading edge;

I apologize for those who could not stay positive, including myself. But you should understand that the severe hardship that has been inflicted upon those of us who are desperately trying to support our families out here in high cost of living areas can be overwhelming.

I came into this career with what I felt were reasonable expectations. I did not expect to live the life of a wealthy man, however I felt that with disciplined financial behavior and hard work I would live a comfortable life. I never counted on working two jobs my whole life just to get by.

When our wage was restored in 2001 I was content. I could pay my bills and not have to work two jobs for the first time in my life. After over 20 years in the industry I felt I could finally kick back a little. Then came the concessions. We ended up worse off than ever before.


Out here on the line we felt the cuts long before those in Tulsa did. We have felt them long before 1980, as we saw similar skilled workers in other industries leave us in the dust as far as pay and benifits. Thats line mechanics have wanted AMFA for nearly40 years. We want a union that will focus on our craft. Focus on our Profession like ALPA focuses on pilots.

By the way, when you fill out a card you are calling for an election. If you dont want any union then you dont vote at all. The NMB automatically considers uncast votes as a vote to have no union.

However I think that you should look beyond the negative posts and consider the fact that the pilots have for the most part done very well by having a focused, craft specific union. If AMFA does not meet your expectations you could always start a drive to decertify them.