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To Leading Edge,

The Concept of “Craft or Classâ€

This a Federal Government Concept that places work groups under the Railway Labor Act into craft or class designations based on mutuality of interest in work preformed.

Thus, the Pilots vote with Pilots and the Flight Attendants are prohibited as a matter of law from voting with the Pilots. And the Mechanic and Related work group is entitled by law to vote amongst themselves for representation based on work scope and mutuality of interest of work preformed.

The Craft Union of the Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association is the only choice that restricts itself constitutionally to representing the Mechanic and Related Craft or Class. AMFA will not represent baggage handlers, flight attendants, or passenger service clerks.

The idea or philosophy if you will of the AMFA is to place all workers that according to Federal Government share a mutuality of interest at the both the bargaining table and the political arena into one union, under one governing umbrella, thus focusing on and advancing the mechanic profession. AMFA will spend money only on mechanic and related issues and organizing campaigns attempting to advance the profession and this philosophy.

In contrast, the TWU is an industrial union that believes all workers should unite into one union regardless of the Federal Government mutuality of interest decisions. The belief is that “strength in numbers†has merit and the loaf of bread cost the same for everyone so all workers should be paid close to the same pay.

The debate between craft unionism versus industrial unionism goes back to the late 1800’s. We are not pioneers to this argument. Socialism is a valid form of Government Representation, most Americans reject this idea in favor of a Capitalist Society. So too is Industrial Unionism a valid form of Union Representation, I just happen to believe that the Mechanic and Related work group or “the profession†is not going to be best served by inclusion into a large union, made up of many work classes, when the union is supposed to be a “majority rule†democratically functioning body of union representatives.

Since the Federal Government designates “craft or classes†based on mutuality of interest, and does not include baggage handlers, stores clerks, passenger service clerks, bus drivers, railroad workers, (ect). It is therefore, hard for me to fathom how it is in the mechanic profession’s best interest to belong to a union made up of and dominated by the non-craft or class workers.

I am no longer interested in subsidizing the loaf of bread for non-craft or class work groups. Maybe in a Regulated Airline Industry, this philosophy was sound and successful for those represented by the TWU, and therefore all of TWU’s history representing the mechanic workforce is not all bad. But recent history has shown that in a de-regulated industry, the mechanic profession is suffering from industrial union representation.

Please Leading Edge, vote as you wish, but Non-Union is a most dangerous path to take based on frustrations that you have not had your questions answered. A little research and attendance at both AMFA and TWU meetings in the upcoming months will clearly spell out the differences. However, when one organization is basing their complete campaign of fear and intimidation, and the hardships of the other related to 9/11, then this is not true to the craft versus industrial union debate. Seek information relating to the AFL and the CIO prior to merger in the 1950’s. That is where you find the clear cut understanding of the two choices in union philosophies. I believe that since the merger of the AFL-CIO into one organization, the craft unionist beliefs and philosophies have been eroded in the majortiy rule group. And thus, advancements in organized labor ceased at that time, and we need a return to craft union ideas before organized labor goes the way of the dinosaurs.

In short the answer to your question is simple:

Why wouldn't a mechanic want to be in a mechanic's union.

What purpose is the profession served by inclusion into a union of non-mechanic issues and needs?

Even when placing this decision into the simplest terms, the arguement in favor of craft unionism is sure to be pro-mechanic, pro-profession, because you are the union and you are a mechanic, and your profession will be the majority of the union once and for all.

Thank You
 
twuer,

Where am I being negative? I'm for "progressions" not "concessions". I asked for clarification of your stance that concessions are "protecting the profession".
If the company comes to the twu and says,"You will take a 50% paycut or we will farm out the overhaul bases", will the twu say YES to more concessions? JUST ANSWER THE QUESTION WILL YOU?


LeadingEdge,

You can check "NO UNION" on your ballot or you can write in whatever union you want. I partly agree with you. It would be better to be "NON-UNION" than be represented by the TWU.
 
Interesting information.

I got mail today. Amfa card an more good information. I will send in the card tomorrow.

Advice for you guys that support amfa. You should stick to the issues and stop the anti-twu garbage. You make very good points about the mechanics future and our jobs and that message is getting lost in the twu vs amfa anger or agrguements you have with each other.

Advice for you guys that support twu. You should quit attacking amfa and tell everyone how you intend to fix the consessions we have taken. None of us work for the other airline and what happened there is not what will happen at aa. I want to know what you plan to do at aa and when you plan to do it.

I am still undecided but leaning amfa now and we should vote on this matter. I would like to hear from others why I should support your views. Please do not tell me what is wrong the other guys views but tell me why you believe the way you do. I am very interested and reading everything I can.
 
Leading Edge,

I have worked here at AA for about 14 years now. I like you have not supported either union, more or less a fence rider. Recently I came to the conclusion that I would vote for AMFA if we can get it to a vote. I just got tired of concession after concession with the twu. I did my research as you will have to do to make your own decision but what finally did it for me was when Tech Services voted down the concessions and got told by the twu they would have to accept the contract anyways. I believe that that was a serious injustice and think that it is time for someone else to try.

You need to come out to the open house on Saturday at the new union hall AMFA opened in Tulsa. Dell will be there as well as several others who have lots of knowledge about the AMFA organization. If you are like me you will be real impressed with the professional attitudes and atmosphere.

This bulletin board can be a great source of information but get rather childish at times. It would not be wise to base your decision from these bulletin boards.

Good Luck in your decision......... GO AMFA!!!
 
Leading Edge,

Try reading both of the constitutions, twu and the AMFA. If your into Democracy, the choice is clear.

My top reasons for AMFA:

Letters of Agreement are ratified by membership approval with AMFA.
Anyone who represents me with the AMFA is subject to recall by the membership.
At AA we have alot of unlicensed mechanics. The AMFA will assist those members, who so desire, to get their licenses.
At Northwest for example, AMFA negotiated language/scope before they even thought about wages. This is of very high priority to me. The Northwest agreement has alot of good language in it along with the other AMFA negotiated airlines.
I like the idea of all mechanics under one umbrella. Strength in SKILLED numbers.

I have many others but these are my favorite. If you look at everything good and bad said about the AMFA, there are always these things in common:
It was approved by the membership.
It does not infringe upon the members rights.
If it's goes against the contract, AMFA will fight it.
The AMFA members have the opportunity to replace the AMFA with "ANY" other union they want, but have chosen not to.
The twu talks alot about the AMFA at Northwest. Force Majeur was used by NWA to circumvent the contract. There is not a union on this planet who could have done more than what the AMFA did for it's members at NWA. What's important to me here is that AMFA is Fighting the injustice. United.....say what you want, AMFA is having to police an IAM negotiated contract. When we get AMFA at AA they will have to police our AA/twu agreement. Each airline represented by the AMFA will be different. It will be what "WE" make it.
Keep in mind the afl-cio "no raid" clause. Because of this, AMFA is our only other union alternative. AMFA may not be perfect, but it seems to be the direction our profession is heading. After AA...FedEx and Continental are up to bat.

Here's to the informed member..........
Casting an educated vote......
Cheers.........

Keep the Faith......VOTE AMFA
 
And I will tell you this, the first union that post negative issues about the other instead of answering this question will lose my support and vote automatically. Do any of you think you can handle this?

And i also dont see where amfa supporters can follow instructions and keep the points in a pro mechanic positive direction.

Leading Edge, It was obvious from the start you favored amfa, It's a shame member wantabes have to lie and portray half-truths in order to make a point! This is typical amfa hype! Lies, intimidation and half-truths is the issue of this thread not if your going to sign a card or not! All you did was lower yourself to the level of the amfa wantabes you complained about from the onset!

I feel sorry for individuals who make up different alias in an attempt to decieve!


Have A Great Day!
 
Leading Edge,

There you have a huge difference looking you right in the eye. If you begin to favor AMFA and think like a Mechanic who wants to be treated with dignity and respect, and advance the future of the profession, then you will be called a liar, stupid, and wantabe. The paranoid members of the Industrial Union will not answer the facts regarding the Federal Governement determination of craft or class and why you should strongly cosider a union of Mechanics and by Mechanics. The use of fear and intimidation to influence you to support the cause of a socialist form of unionism is always a clear indication of a philosophy that lacks any other form of allegiance.

Why someone that will need every vote possible to survive would attack you in such a manner is beyond me, but you should continue to research and ask questions. I once was a TWU advocate, until the truth struck be between the ears.

Don't let the attacks or name calling get to you. Congrats on becoming a Mechanic, and one that seeks a good future for the profession.

Who cares what the Loaf of Bread Cost, Join the Revolution.
 
TWUer,

Still waiting for my answer to my question. I see you have made posts elsewhere today. How come you won't answer my question? HOW FAR DOWN WILL THE TWU TAKE OUR WAGES AND BENEFITS UNTIL THE TWU SAYS:"ENOUGH IS ENOUGH"?
 
Checking it Out said:
I feel sorry for individuals who make up different alias in an attempt to decieve!
Ha Ha HA HA HA ha ha. You've got to be kidding, right?
 
TWU informer said:
Leading Edge,

There you have a huge difference looking you right in the eye. If you begin to favor AMFA and think like a Mechanic who wants to be treated with dignity and respect, and advance the future of the profession, then you will be called a liar, stupid, and wantabe. The paranoid members of the Industrial Union will not answer the facts regarding the Federal Governement determination of craft or class and why you should strongly cosider a union of Mechanics and by Mechanics. The use of fear and intimidation to influence you to support the cause of a socialist form of unionism is always a clear indication of a philosophy that lacks any other form of allegiance.

Why someone that will need every vote possible to survive would attack you in such a manner is beyond me, but you should continue to research and ask questions. I once was a TWU advocate, until the truth struck be between the ears.

Don't let the attacks or name calling get to you. Congrats on becoming a Mechanic, and one that seeks a good future for the profession.

Who cares what the Loaf of Bread Cost, Join the Revolution.
Why insult the Socialists? This union is not about lifting the status of all workers. They may talk like Socialists when it suits them but more often than not they talk like corporations. "we create/saved jobs", "paycuts are good for you", "you have to save the company", "if not for lower wages and less benifits you would not have a job". I've never heard these types of things out of a Socialist or any real unionist, but I've heard them for years out of the TWU. The TWU is all about collecting enough dues so those at the top can reward themselves with six figure salaries, benifits and perks like cars and union paid for holidays in Hawaii. They will say anything to anybody as long as it helps them to meet that objective.


That loaf of bread costs the $15/hr average TWU member the same as it costs the $200K/year plus perks, Sonny Hall.
 
PRINCESS KIDAGAKASH said:
TWUer,

Still waiting for my answer to my question. I see you have made posts elsewhere today. How come you won't answer my question? HOW FAR DOWN WILL THE TWU TAKE OUR WAGES AND BENEFITS UNTIL THE TWU SAYS:"ENOUGH IS ENOUGH"?
Sorry Princess, I didn't make it to this topic earlier. I was spending time on the topic of NWA laying off 4800 since 9-11. You wouldn't care to comment on that would you??

Anyway, to your question, the TWU aren't the ones "taking down the wages and benefits". To the contrary, in 2001 TWU negotiated the leading contract in the industry and even today the TWU still has the best pension and retirement benefits found anywhere in the industry including amfa represented carriers. As a matter of fact at Alaska amfa negotiated away the defined benefit pension for newly hired employees and allowed it to be replaced with a 401k. Secondly, TWU couldn't touch what amfa has done to lower the wages of our profession. Where do you think the 10,000 laid off workers will get jobs since their jobs will never return at NWA or UAL? Let me tell you, they are all headed towards the third party vendors that are now doing the work that NWA and UAL used to do and what's worse is they are doing it for half the money, very little benefit, and no defined pensions.

So, you want to talk about how far down an organization will take the profession you should jerk your head out of the sand and see the reality of this group that you hold in so high esteem. AMFA is destroying our profession, our livelihoods, our communities and our pensions. I hope you people can sleep at night with your holier-than-thou attitudes. You are costing thousands of hard working people the oppurtunity to make the same good living that you say you so desparately seek.

Any other questions???
 
twuer said:
PRINCESS KIDAGAKASH said:
TWUer,

Still waiting for my answer to my question. I see you have made posts elsewhere today. How come you won't answer my question? HOW FAR DOWN WILL THE TWU TAKE OUR WAGES AND BENEFITS UNTIL THE TWU SAYS:"ENOUGH IS ENOUGH"?
Sorry Princess, I didn't make it to this topic earlier. I was spending time on the topic of NWA laying off 4800 since 9-11. You wouldn't care to comment on that would you??

Anyway, to your question, the TWU aren't the ones "taking down the wages and benefits". To the contrary, in 2001 TWU negotiated the leading contract in the industry and even today the TWU still has the best pension and retirement benefits found anywhere in the industry including amfa represented carriers. As a matter of fact at Alaska amfa negotiated away the defined benefit pension for newly hired employees and allowed it to be replaced with a 401k. Secondly, TWU couldn't touch what amfa has done to lower the wages of our profession. Where do you think the 10,000 laid off workers will get jobs since their jobs will never return at NWA or UAL? Let me tell you, they are all headed towards the third party vendors that are now doing the work that NWA and UAL used to do and what's worse is they are doing it for half the money, very little benefit, and no defined pensions.

So, you want to talk about how far down an organization will take the profession you should jerk your head out of the sand and see the reality of this group that you hold in so high esteem. AMFA is destroying our profession, our livelihoods, our communities and our pensions. I hope you people can sleep at night with your holier-than-thou attitudes. You are costing thousands of hard working people the oppurtunity to make the same good living that you say you so desparately seek.

Any other questions???
Whoa, what a spin!

Sure in 2001 the TWU came back with a few pennies over what NWA got, however AMFA did not raise the standard by a few pennies, they raised it by $10/hr.

Secondly, the TWU came back, only halfway through the contract, extended it to 2009 and not only cut the pay by 17% but also gutted the rest of the contract making the true cut over 20%. The lost holiday pay and extra week of work, without extra pay have to be taken into consideration. We gave up things that NOBODY else gave up, and we still lost workers.

Who says the jobs over there will never return? Those carriers have had deep layoffs before. They always hired back. AA doesnt like to layoff because then they have trouble rehiring, whereas NWA can cut deep and count on most of their mechanics returning because they pay well, AA will likely never get back many of those laid off even if they have not transferred their work to other lower paid TWU members like has happened to many A&P jobs at AA over the years. Thats one reason why AA did not lay off as much, the other is why lay off if you can pay less to keep it in house/ Are you bragging that you have guys making less than they would with the same amount of time working for a third party service provider? Is that something to be proud of ? "We work for less than non-union, join TeAAm TWU" "Who needs Right To Work when you have the TWU?

As far as AA pension, how do you figure its better? Out multiplier may be higher but if we are multiplying a smaller number then our pension, in addition to our income while working will be less. Would you rather have 10% of $5 or 7% of $10? I'll take the lower multiplier of a higher wage. You can put the extra earnings in a 401 K and the higher wage would make up for the lower multiplier.

Your description of the third party sounds like what we have, one exception, Ill bet that at those third party vendors they dont work weekends, have the holidays off and get at least TWO weeks vacation!

Who are you blaming for destroying the profession? The union that fights for higher wages or the one that seeks to drag the airlines down to third party vendors?

Our profession has been in a downward slide for over 20 years, all of which was on the TWUs watch. AMFA was not even representing any contract group during most of that time and during the time they did they did not represent ant group large enogh to have an industrywide impact-not until they got NWA. Now AMFA has Ual, Alaska, NWA, SWA and are poised to get AA, Continental, USAIR and possibly Fed Ex, UPS and Delta before the next round of negotiations.

We gave the TWU twenty years to turn things around. They failed, not the members, not the economy, not the government, THE TWU-THEY FAILED FOR OVER 20 YEARS! No more chances. No more empty promises of "we will get em next time". We need to unite with all the other mechanics in the industry, AMFA already represents the majority of mechanics at major airlines. Once we go there AMFA will be the undisputed mechanics union for the airline industry, it will be the ALPA of maintenance.

When are you going to answer my questions?
 
Anyway, to your question, the TWU aren't the ones "taking down the wages and benefits". To the contrary, in 2001 TWU negotiated the leading contract in the industry and even today the TWU still has the best pension and retirement benefits found anywhere in the industry including amfa represented carriers. As a matter of fact at Alaska amfa negotiated away the defined benefit pension for newly hired employees and allowed it to be replaced with a 401k. Secondly, TWU couldn't touch what amfa has done to lower the wages of our profession. Where do you think the 10,000 laid off workers will get jobs since their jobs will never return at NWA or UAL? Let me tell you, they are all headed towards the third party vendors that are now doing the work that NWA and UAL used to do and what's worse is they are doing it for half the money, very little benefit, and no defined pensions.


twuer, the twu did not negotiate anything in 2001. AMFA faced probably the most anti-labor management airline at NWA and faced a PEB. AMFA held their ground and listened to the membership. Pure and simple. AMFA raised the bar for my entire profession.
burchette goes to Horizon and states that contracts should "leap frog" each previous one. What happened at AA after AMFA settled at NWA? The twu "leap frogged" by pennies. That is the truth.
As for Alaska AMFA listened to the membership. Just ask Alaska AMts about their pay raise. That is the truth.
How has AMFA lowered the wages of our profession? Has AMFA taken concessions? How about the twu with NO snap backs? That is the truth.

A simple fact for all AMTs that have not signed an AMFA yet should ask themselves why it is that all pro twu posts are posted with an alias. All pro twu posts attack AMFA for being a craft union. All pro twu posts have not explained why the twu is better than AMFA. All pro twu posts have not explained why international officers are not elected by the full membership. All pro twu posts can not explain why AMTs were not allowed a FULL REVOTE.
 
TWUer,

All that B.S. you spewed and you still didn't answer the question! What's so great about defined benefit retirements anyway? It seems every one of them including the TWU's own plan's are underfunded and fixing to collapse. If the government agency that backs up these plans folds (which looks likely to happen), what good was the so-called defined benefit? We could argue all day about defined benefit vs. 401k retirement plans. They both have their pluses and minuses. At least with the matched dollar for dollar 401k retirement plan(ALASKA'S) you can have some control over your money.
 
Bob,
Obviously the kool-aid you drank was really strong! Wake up Bob, you and I both know that amfa didn’t start the big pay raises when the industry was thriving, the pilots were the first ones to gain major raises (not to mention that the airlines were all making a killing) which set the stage for everyone else. You give amfa credit when all they did was finance the NWA mechanics raise with their own seniority and bidding rights that amfa gave back to the company after the IAM had gained them. That raise didn’t cost NWA one nickel! AMFA gave up something gained at the bargaining table in return for money and oh, by the way, those rights they gave up are currently screwing many senior mechanics, causing them to have to move when junior people are staying put. Nice job!

And yes, TWU chose to negotiate a restructuring agreement in lieu of taking the United route (which you amfa boys pursued). Now what are they faced with? 6100 jobs lost, all the heavy work outsourced (not that you’d care about that) and now UAL is coming after the retirees (nor do you care about that!) YEH YEH YEH, I know, amfa had nothing to do with UAL right? That’s B.S. and you know it! Isn’t it ironic that you amfa boys here at AA took the same position? And your amfa brethren at NWA did the right thing too, right?? And what has been their reality? 4800 lay-offs according to Mr. Mathews. Your problem Bob, is that you’d rather see someone take a 100% paycut as long as your sorry a** doesn’t have to be bothered with it! Well, you are currently getting your wish at both UAL and NWA. And job losses? Let’s compare, AA about 15% M&R, NWA 45% M&R, UAL 50% M&R. And which one of those three still does all it’s heavy work? AA! Which one has the lowest outsourced work? AA! Which one is still building you the best pension in the industry? AA! And who’s responsible for all of that? TWU! Um, surely your not advocating that a 401k is better the a defined pension are you?

You actually think the jobs that the amfa has allowed outsourced are coming back? And that crap about NWA can cut deeper than most because they have no trouble hiring….c'mon Bob, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist here. You should maybe tell the guys at local 33 who have suggested that those jobs are likely gone forever! And frankly at the very least, after your buddies decided not to negotiate with NWA after 9-11, they laid off thousands and it was amfa’s fault. But that was okay, because amfa filed a “force majeure†grievance…..well now your supreme legal counsel has lost the first one, setting the stage for more bad language for the rest of us to deal with and not helping one soul back to work! Have you read the case? Your god of legal defense Seham lost it with the very first “expert†witness he called! Why don’t you guys think about the “bigger picture†here and quit trying to screw us all by not knowing what the heck your doing?

And Bob, your rosy outlook for an all mechanics union is fatally flawed. Have you forgotten something called “the law� Give me a break, the ALPA of maintenance? You know, you have just convinced me the you are actually off you ever lovin' rocker. Do you hear a whistling noise when the wind blows and you turn your head just right? Amfa is the reason for many bad things currently and you don’t have to look far but you do have to pull your head out and take a look!

Are your eyes tired yet?? Quit giving me these long posts to answer. I’ve got better things to do than to correct your poor information.

And I guess I forgot what your other questions were. Are you bringing that CPI thing back up again? I thought I told you what I thought of that.

Will you be coming to Tulsa this Saturday for the hotdogs? They’re free!!! :up:
 
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