Interesting

MagSeal

Veteran
Nov 19, 2004
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UPDATED AT 2:05 AM EST Monday, Nov. 24, 2003
Intrigue swirls as copter bid hits key stage
By DANIEL LEBLANCFrom Monday's Globe and Mail

Ottawa — Ottawa's $3-billion plan to buy new military helicopters is awash in a swirl of rumours that at least one, and possibly all three, interested manufacturers will be disqualified this week, leaving the drawn-out process in disarray.The decade-old effort to replace the 40-year-old Sea King helicopters will reach a key point this week, when the federal government announces whether any of the three bidders has met the technical requirements. Companies that meet the requirements established by the Canadian Forces in terms of power, size, equipment and technical capacity will be able to bid on the contract. From those, the government will pick a winner based on the lowest price for 28 aircraft.However, industry sources say that senior civil servants stated as late as last week that none of the companies has met all of those requirements. "We're hearing a lot of rumours out of Ottawa — and some which are stronger than rumours — that not all of the contenders have passed the pre-qualification process," said Larry McWha, a retired pilot who now acts as a consultant for helicopter consortium Team Cormorant.One helicopter in particular is thought to face a tougher battle to meet the technical requirements. The Lockheed-Martin NH-90C would likely be cheaper than its two competitors — Sikorsky's S-92 and Team Cormorant's EH-101 — but it is also smaller. While highly manoeuvrable, the NH-90C has often been criticized as not being powerful enough for duty in the Canadian Forces.However, Rod Skotty, a Lockheed-Martin vice-president, said he is optimistic that the NH-90C will meet all of Ottawa's requirements.He predicted that the government will issue its formal request for proposals in coming weeks to launch the final phase of the competition among all three manufacturers."We're hearing that we are going to comply," Mr. Skotty said. "I think everyone will be compliant."Industry officials said they are "sitting on pins and needles" as they are waiting for the final word on the technical competition, which would explain the onslaught of last-minute rumours. One lobbyist said that everyone is nervous as Ottawa's announcement on technical compliance has been slow in coming."What's holding them?" the lobbyist asked.All three companies have had to produce "risk-mitigation plans" to the government, under which they promise to fix any problems identified by the helicopter experts at the Department of National Defence. But the question is whether any company has encountered a problem that they cannot fix.Officials at the departments of Public Works and National Defence confirmed that an announcement on the technical competition is expected this week, but refused to comment on the status of the three entries.The government has to quickly replace its Sea Kings, which are once again going through mechanical problems. Two of the helicopters recently lost power for unexplained reasons.Colonel François Pion, who is investigating the incidents, said there is no problem with individual mechanical systems in the Sea Kings, such as the gearbox, the engine or the fuel system. The problem was likely caused by the interaction between these systems, he said."That makes our job, of course, very difficult because we haven't really found anything wrong with those systems separately. Now we have to look at the whole systems as they are run into specific conditions," he said.Prime Minister Jean Chrétien cancelled a government contract to buy new helicopters in 1993, saying the deal was too expensive. If the controversial file is not completed soon, it will fall in the lap of Paul Martin, who takes over as prime minister on Dec. 12.Mr. Martin has said he wants the government to purchase "absolutely the best" helicopter. Mr. Chrétien said the government should buy the cheapest aircraft that meets minimum requirements.
 
Here we go again... I hear the Coast Guard might be selling some 105s, maybe they could use those?

Ridiculous. Shameful. I hate politicians.
 
Meanwhile, the Sea-King fleet is still under some sort of duty restrictions because investigators can't figure out why there were some power-losses over the last year.

Yes, it is shameful, but is it the politicians fault ?

Would the present 'system' even be able to maintain a 105 ??
Would the present 'system' even be able to figure out why a 105 is not working properly ??

Will things get any better if Paul Martin throws billions of dollars worth of new MSH helicopters their way ??
 
Good points. I've gone on record here as saying that I think they way they maintain the Griffon is shameful as well.

It still boils down to the political side, though. It's they who slash budgets so these things don't get maintained properly, and nobody gets to fly.
 
"Mr. Chrétien said the government should buy the cheapest aircraft that meets minimum requirements."

Hmm.. Does the 500 million we already paid to not buy the 101 the first time around count in this? :angry:

Chretien mucked this deal up coming in, and it apears he'll find some way to muck it up on the way out too.
 
Don"t be surprised if the 500 Mil will be considered as a down payment from PM Martain when He takes over on Dec 12.

:down: :down: :down:
 
Mr. Chrétien said the government should buy the cheapest aircraft that meets minimum requirements.
:wacko:

Gosh.... was this the same philosophy Mr. Cretin used when he purchase an airplane to ferry his sorry ass around the world?


I doubt it.....

Good riddance Cretin.... should've happened 10 years ago..... (but for Ontario....)
 
Not to defend Crétien, but the two 604s were purchased after Sept 11th because the old ones couldn't be retrofitted with the anti-threat stuff, and didn't have the legs to get out of trouble if the shite hit the fan.

Of course, DND cannot say this for security reasons, so Johnny had to take it on the chin.

Again, I'm not defending him, but the fact is, as a G7 leader there wasn't much choice. Does anyone really think that with the Sea King fiasco, and all the political heat they'd take, that they would buy two new jets, virtually identical on the inside to the old ones, because they wanted new seats?

But it suuuuuuure looked bad.
 
Does anyone really think that with the Sea King fiasco, and all the political heat they'd take, that they would buy two new jets, virtually identical on the inside to the old ones, because they wanted new seats?


uhhhhh..... YES! New airplanes are perceived to be safer airplanes. How many times did we see Cretin climbing aboard a SeaKing?
 
getting back to the original news story, does anyone think the military is asking for too much. I mean three very capable aircraft are rumoured to be unable to perform all the tasks single handed.
I'm thinking they had the oportunity to reach into the cookie jar and found that they can't pull out the fistfull of cookies thru the opening.
The question now is, what requirments will be relaxed?
 
Batman, you can certainly take a complete paragraph, take one line and take it out of context.

I would get in an S-61, never in a SeaKing in this present day and age.

This is from a person that has flown of the Maggie in an HO4S3. They were in great shape and the only ones ever lost were in Halifax harbour.

In actual fact the condition of the SeaKing is the problem of the upper echelon in DND without the guts to tell politico's were to get of and get the required equipment to do the job.

Remember who wrote up the original specs for the Navy Choppers (the Cadillacs) , once the RFP was on the street he quit and joined one of the main contenders of the program.

DND in the upper echelon's are more interested in there after DND exposure, than doing the job they should be doing.

IMHO

Don
 
Magseal,

I just find it so hard to believe that the birds that have been in contention for this long don't meet the requirements DND has set out. I must admit I'm a bit confused, does the artical mean to say that the demand was sent out for heli's without even listing what they had to do? surely the companies wouldnt have spent all this money to stay in the hunt if they didnt think they had a shot, or at least some idea of what was expected, how can the politiks change the rules now?

And again, maybe I don't know any better because I'm new, but isn't the 101 an automatic first choice since we already just bought some and (to the best of my knowledge) are just finishing ironing out all the kinks and problems that came with a new bird? The cormerants have been performing well for the SAR comunity here have they not? why not stick with what we know rather then add one more type of aircraft to the mix? (and hopefully the cost savings in having twice as many of one part as opposed to two completely different sets of one part is too obvious to mention)

I had thought there was talk earlier of the 101 not being able to fit into the ships hangers, but I'm assuming if it was an issue we would still be hearing about it.

Hmm... Maybe Ahh-nold would like to come north and run our great land, then I'm sure we would have all the helicopters and killer robots we wanted.

tDawe
 
I’ve talked to quite a few folks in the Air Force, and they say the only one that meets the majority of the requirements is the Cormorant. The S-92 is a good helicopter, but still too many problems that have to be worked out. The NH-90 is also a very capable helicopter, but it lacks the size needed (even with the stand-up cabin the Canadian version would have) if the Navy is asking the Air Force for a helicopter that will do everything anywhere anytime. Specs have been dumbed down for both types. However, according to my sources the Cormorant met or exceeded every one of the specifications before they were lowered.

The Cormorant is the obvious choice, not only because of its capabilities, but also because of the commonality. Remember when the Air Force bought the 412s? They replaced the Huey, Twin Huey and Kiowa in order to bring the number of aircraft types down – they needed one airframe to do (or try and do) everything all three did. Buying anything other than the Cormorant would go against this mandate.

The sticker price of the Cormorant may be more, but I think, in the long run because of the commonality with the CH-149 airframe already in service support costs would be lower.

There is no arguing that the Cormorant is a BIG bird, and modifications will have to be made to the frigates to accommodate them, but this is exactly what the Air Force needs, Cadillacs. If they are going to be flying these birds for the next 40 years, why buy something that is the lowest bid? A lot of things can happen over the next 40 years and the Air Force has to have a helicopter big enough to be modified to meet the changing roles over the next few decades.
 
Still think the best choice is to replace the sea kings with sea kings.

nice flat panel displays composite blades , reliable HUMS and newer engines with fADEC and you have a machine that will complete all the tasks required.

Not a sexy enough solution though.
 
Interesting you should say that.

I was at the Shearwater air show in September, Cougar brought over its S-61N from Newfoundland with the glass cockpit that VIH did. The boys in blue were all over it! Apparently there was some keen interest, but, only to get them to whatever replaces the Sea Kings 10 years from now. Anyone else hear of any interest?

I would love to know the tally of what it has cost all of the company project offices (Agusta/Westland, Eurocopter/NHI and Sikorsky) in Ottawa to run their campaigns over the last 10 years! And to think it's just for 28 helicopters!
 

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