Tell you what Chip. I'll vote yes when you have taken the same cuts to your pension and job security that I have. The company is bluffing. You are buying it. But you know what, even if they aren't bluffing, I don't care. At some point you have to say enough is enough. What are you going to do when they come back to ALPA for more cuts? When they want your pension? When they want to outsource all of your jobs? Even you have to admit there is a bottom to the cuts you will agree too. Argue with me about the level at which I am making my stand, but don't argue with me over the principle of saying enough is enough.
My question (as a passenger who flies US with great regularity) of ANY employee is this:
How can a NO vote help save this airline?
Please answer with financial facts that will help me believe that a NO vote will somehow allow US to survive. I am at the point now where I NEED to see the FINANCIAL numbers (not passions and/or emotions) that will demonstrate that a NO vote will allow US to keep flying.
I am of the opinion that unless ALL groups vote YES, US will be liquidated. I'd hate to see it because US is BY FAR the best airline out there. I speak with great front line employees all the time. I'm sure I'd enjoy similar situations with the other employees given the chance.
Doesn't anyone here see the opportunity that US Airways has to get lean & mean and be one of the first of the majors to return to profitability? That path to profitability is painful and it will mean that some great employees WILL be out of jobs. However, given the choice of SOME employees out of work and ALL employees out of work there is no choice.
How can a NO vote help save this airline?
Please answer with financial facts that will help me believe that a NO vote will somehow allow US to survive. I am at the point now where I NEED to see the FINANCIAL numbers (not passions and/or emotions) that will demonstrate that a NO vote will allow US to keep flying.
I am of the opinion that unless ALL groups vote YES, US will be liquidated. I'd hate to see it because US is BY FAR the best airline out there. I speak with great front line employees all the time. I'm sure I'd enjoy similar situations with the other employees given the chance.
Doesn't anyone here see the opportunity that US Airways has to get lean & mean and be one of the first of the majors to return to profitability? That path to profitability is painful and it will mean that some great employees WILL be out of jobs. However, given the choice of SOME employees out of work and ALL employees out of work there is no choice.
Chip seems to me to be a barometer on these boards. When he gets worried about the state of "U" he reflects employee sentiment about the future of "U" and hopes that all will sign off on concessions.
[blockquote]
----------------
On 1/5/2003 9:22:24 AM geo1004 wrote:
How can a NO vote help save this airline?
Please answer with financial facts that will help me believe that a NO vote will somehow allow US to survive.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Geo....the problem is that most of the NO voters don't fully understand what is at stake and why they are voting NO. They are voting based on their emotions and not the actual facts. This statement isn't directed towards EVERY NO voter, but a majority. Remember that your CWA leaders viewed "CONFIDENTIAL" information and the CWA recommended that their members vote YES. The NO voters are digging their graves and unfortunately, every employee will fall victim to their error.
Until the voting is over, Chip, Cav, and myself will continue to stress the importance of voting YES. As geo mentioned, please tell us why you are voting NO and how this will benefit the company and yourself? Please mentioned something other than the ALPA pension issue. Think of something new for this board. In a previous thread, the Uinvestor raised several questions regarding what type of jobs these NO voters planned on obtaining and I don't believe he received any response. Please tell us your "PLAN B".
----------------
On 1/5/2003 9:22:24 AM geo1004 wrote:
How can a NO vote help save this airline?
Please answer with financial facts that will help me believe that a NO vote will somehow allow US to survive.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Geo....the problem is that most of the NO voters don't fully understand what is at stake and why they are voting NO. They are voting based on their emotions and not the actual facts. This statement isn't directed towards EVERY NO voter, but a majority. Remember that your CWA leaders viewed "CONFIDENTIAL" information and the CWA recommended that their members vote YES. The NO voters are digging their graves and unfortunately, every employee will fall victim to their error.
Until the voting is over, Chip, Cav, and myself will continue to stress the importance of voting YES. As geo mentioned, please tell us why you are voting NO and how this will benefit the company and yourself? Please mentioned something other than the ALPA pension issue. Think of something new for this board. In a previous thread, the Uinvestor raised several questions regarding what type of jobs these NO voters planned on obtaining and I don't believe he received any response. Please tell us your "PLAN B".
[blockquote]
----------------
On 1/4/2003 11:42:08 PM chipmunn wrote:
Slam:
With all due respect, if people like Cav and I thought everybody got it there would be no need to post our comments.
Chip
----------------
[/blockquote]
Fine, I believe otherwise. I believe that there are those folks that know the differences between a yes and no vote. I believe that those same folks understand that a majority of no votes will be detrimental to the future of US Airways. I believe that those people also understand that they must vote according to what they believe to be in the best interest of everyone and themselves. I also believe that there will be a handful of people that will vote only with emotion and personal vendetta. However, you and a team of pontificators holding what amounts to a series of message board 'same topic, different day filibusters' will never change that. You know the definition of insanity don't you?
----------------
On 1/4/2003 11:42:08 PM chipmunn wrote:
Slam:
With all due respect, if people like Cav and I thought everybody got it there would be no need to post our comments.
Chip
----------------
[/blockquote]
Fine, I believe otherwise. I believe that there are those folks that know the differences between a yes and no vote. I believe that those same folks understand that a majority of no votes will be detrimental to the future of US Airways. I believe that those people also understand that they must vote according to what they believe to be in the best interest of everyone and themselves. I also believe that there will be a handful of people that will vote only with emotion and personal vendetta. However, you and a team of pontificators holding what amounts to a series of message board 'same topic, different day filibusters' will never change that. You know the definition of insanity don't you?
Here’s a fact. All Southwest CS employees top out at $25.00 an hour. We are being ask in the near future to accept $13.50 an hour and still work mainline flights in most cities. That’s half what Southwest makes. If all groups will do the same I’ll vote yes. We do understand what at stake, our jobs, yours and mine, but our backs are against the wall. A yes vote and it over for us. We are not willing to give away our career completely to save your big check and pension. If you were in my shoes you would do the same thing, and if you say you wouldn't you are lying.
[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/5/2003 11
10 AM Do_it_for_Dave wrote:
[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/5/2003 9:22:24 AM geo1004 wrote: [BR][BR]How can a NO vote help save this airline?[BR][BR]Please answer with financial facts that will help me believe that a NO vote will somehow allow US to survive. [BR]----------------[BR][/BLOCKQUOTE][BR][BR][BR]Geo....the problem is that most of the NO voters don't fully understand what is at stake and why they are voting NO. They are voting based on their emotions and not the actual facts. This statement isn't directed towards EVERY NO voter, but a majority. Remember that your CWA leaders viewed "CONFIDENTIAL" information and the CWA recommended that their members vote YES. The NO voters are digging their graves and unfortunately, every employee will fall victim to their error.[BR][BR]Until the voting is over, Chip, Cav, and myself will continue to stress the importance of voting YES. As geo mentioned, please tell us why you are voting NO and how this will benefit the company and yourself? Please mentioned something other than the ALPA pension issue. Think of something new for this board. In a previous thread, the Uinvestor raised several questions regarding what type of jobs these NO voters planned on obtaining and I don't believe he received any response. Please tell us your "PLAN B".
[P][/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P]first off, how do you know anything about the so called "no voters". you make it sound like you chip and cav are the only authorities as to what is right or wrong...the cwa leaders as well as all the other union leaders had no choice but to push for a yes...no jobs no dues..[BR]secondly, how can you make a statement that "no voters" are voting with emotion...not facts.[BR]neither fleet service or cwa has all the facts and the company does not want to seem to come clean..the only thing a yes vote gaurentees these groups is that 279 a/c will be in the fleet.other than that there is no provisions for either of our groups...oops..mda i forgot...[BR]dont believe for 1 minute that people dont know what is at stake. you tell people to quit if they dont like it...maybe the thinking is it is a bluff..or at least maybe a little better deal..who knows.[BR]if you quit, you cant even collect unemployment. remember that even though we dont have an a/p license or pilots certificate..you can fly all the non mel very safe a/c you like but without someone to load the revenue....pax and cargo...why bother...so you cant blame the nay sayers. they have as much to lose as anyone else..(except a pension) and you still want them to sign a "blank check"[BR]alpa members were not given a vote but how do you think the pilots who are going to be out on the street would vote...i would venture a guess that the yes sirs are all senior and will still be employed, so why would you not want everyone to vote for your job..the same cannot be said for quite a few others...so please dont insist that the other side has no clue.[BR]one last note.....[BR]when ops are irregular due to wx, mtc, atc etc ..who deals with the situation...cust service and fleet service. with he exception of occ and dispatch...everyone else is on break...so give us a break.....thank you.[BR][BR][BR][BR][/P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/5/2003 11
10 AM Do_it_for_Dave wrote: [P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/5/2003 9:22:24 AM geo1004 wrote: [BR][BR]How can a NO vote help save this airline?[BR][BR]Please answer with financial facts that will help me believe that a NO vote will somehow allow US to survive. [BR]----------------[BR][/BLOCKQUOTE][BR][BR][BR]Geo....the problem is that most of the NO voters don't fully understand what is at stake and why they are voting NO. They are voting based on their emotions and not the actual facts. This statement isn't directed towards EVERY NO voter, but a majority. Remember that your CWA leaders viewed "CONFIDENTIAL" information and the CWA recommended that their members vote YES. The NO voters are digging their graves and unfortunately, every employee will fall victim to their error.[BR][BR]Until the voting is over, Chip, Cav, and myself will continue to stress the importance of voting YES. As geo mentioned, please tell us why you are voting NO and how this will benefit the company and yourself? Please mentioned something other than the ALPA pension issue. Think of something new for this board. In a previous thread, the Uinvestor raised several questions regarding what type of jobs these NO voters planned on obtaining and I don't believe he received any response. Please tell us your "PLAN B".
[P][/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P]first off, how do you know anything about the so called "no voters". you make it sound like you chip and cav are the only authorities as to what is right or wrong...the cwa leaders as well as all the other union leaders had no choice but to push for a yes...no jobs no dues..[BR]secondly, how can you make a statement that "no voters" are voting with emotion...not facts.[BR]neither fleet service or cwa has all the facts and the company does not want to seem to come clean..the only thing a yes vote gaurentees these groups is that 279 a/c will be in the fleet.other than that there is no provisions for either of our groups...oops..mda i forgot...[BR]dont believe for 1 minute that people dont know what is at stake. you tell people to quit if they dont like it...maybe the thinking is it is a bluff..or at least maybe a little better deal..who knows.[BR]if you quit, you cant even collect unemployment. remember that even though we dont have an a/p license or pilots certificate..you can fly all the non mel very safe a/c you like but without someone to load the revenue....pax and cargo...why bother...so you cant blame the nay sayers. they have as much to lose as anyone else..(except a pension) and you still want them to sign a "blank check"[BR]alpa members were not given a vote but how do you think the pilots who are going to be out on the street would vote...i would venture a guess that the yes sirs are all senior and will still be employed, so why would you not want everyone to vote for your job..the same cannot be said for quite a few others...so please dont insist that the other side has no clue.[BR]one last note.....[BR]when ops are irregular due to wx, mtc, atc etc ..who deals with the situation...cust service and fleet service. with he exception of occ and dispatch...everyone else is on break...so give us a break.....thank you.[BR][BR][BR][BR][/P]
Slam&Click:
Stating the facts as Chip has done serves as a reminder for us all of what we are up against. A lot of flight attendants tend to want to hide the facts and the realities of what is before us. And, when those defenses are in play, people tend to use the "condescending" excuse to wrap it up - as you have done. Quotes like: "it is so condescending" are simple defenses on your part that have no relevance to the issue. How could stating simple facts be "condescending"?
Don't sound like those dumb bunnies out there that sprinkle our f/a working group.....there is a lot of us out here that have the intelligence to see what people like chip are saying WITHOUT labeling it as "condescending"...
Stating the facts as Chip has done serves as a reminder for us all of what we are up against. A lot of flight attendants tend to want to hide the facts and the realities of what is before us. And, when those defenses are in play, people tend to use the "condescending" excuse to wrap it up - as you have done. Quotes like: "it is so condescending" are simple defenses on your part that have no relevance to the issue. How could stating simple facts be "condescending"?
Don't sound like those dumb bunnies out there that sprinkle our f/a working group.....there is a lot of us out here that have the intelligence to see what people like chip are saying WITHOUT labeling it as "condescending"...
usfliboi
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 2,070
- 270
Im waiting on dvae to say were not projecting the income from ual that we were expecting and ask for more. Then the so called "War on Iraq" lol (sorry i laugh) will be another way to cut yet more monies. Time will tell! I think Dave should be given the same ultimatum that was given to employees. Have this company prof above 10% in 1.5 yrs or u r gone with no benefits..............
chip:
Thanks for stating the facts. Keeping the BB updated serves as a reminder and helps as an easy reference. Thanks.
Thanks for stating the facts. Keeping the BB updated serves as a reminder and helps as an easy reference. Thanks.
SDavis...you mentioned that one is unable to file for unemployment if they quit. Well, since all of the NO voters already have a "Plan B" or another job lined up, there isn't a reason why they should need to file unemployment.
I assume that you are a furlough employee, so you should desire that all of these contracts are ratified. This will mean a possiblity that you could be recalled. If you are a CWA member, you will have flight benefits for your family for 3 years.
If you have moved on to another occupation, you shouldn't try to "take down the ship" as a possible bitter ex-employee.
Everyone likes to mention WN and their $23-$25 hour salaries. Guess what! WN has made a profit every year for the last 20+ years. Their employees deserve their high salaries based upon their profits. WN isn't in chapter 11 on the verge of liquidation either. You should be happy if they company is offering $13.01. As Chip has stated, stop complaining and QUIT!! Please QUIT and allow us to turn around this company.
I assume that you are a furlough employee, so you should desire that all of these contracts are ratified. This will mean a possiblity that you could be recalled. If you are a CWA member, you will have flight benefits for your family for 3 years.
If you have moved on to another occupation, you shouldn't try to "take down the ship" as a possible bitter ex-employee.
Everyone likes to mention WN and their $23-$25 hour salaries. Guess what! WN has made a profit every year for the last 20+ years. Their employees deserve their high salaries based upon their profits. WN isn't in chapter 11 on the verge of liquidation either. You should be happy if they company is offering $13.01. As Chip has stated, stop complaining and QUIT!! Please QUIT and allow us to turn around this company.
Formatman
Member
oldiebutgoody
Veteran
[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/5/2003 1:36:34 PM usfliboi wrote:
[P]Im waiting on dvae to say were not projecting the income from ual that we were expecting and ask for more. Then the so called "War on Iraq" lol (sorry i laugh) will be another way to cut yet more monies. Time will tell! I think Dave should be given the same ultimatum that was given to employees. Have this company prof above 10% in 1.5 yrs or u r gone with no benefits..............[/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P][/P]If you feel that way, just put in your resgnation letter. In the meantime, what are the choices? A job with less pay and fewer benefits or no job! Seems like a cinch to me. At least by keeping U going a while longer you can find another job, and maybe have less competition for it!
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/5/2003 1:36:34 PM usfliboi wrote:
[P]Im waiting on dvae to say were not projecting the income from ual that we were expecting and ask for more. Then the so called "War on Iraq" lol (sorry i laugh) will be another way to cut yet more monies. Time will tell! I think Dave should be given the same ultimatum that was given to employees. Have this company prof above 10% in 1.5 yrs or u r gone with no benefits..............[/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P][/P]If you feel that way, just put in your resgnation letter. In the meantime, what are the choices? A job with less pay and fewer benefits or no job! Seems like a cinch to me. At least by keeping U going a while longer you can find another job, and maybe have less competition for it!
Augustus - I'm not a dumb bunny. I'm not a flight attendant. I don't have anything to do with your work group (but thanks so much for playing). I am no longer an employee of US Airways. I have, however, been attached to this company since my birth. My father was a pilot and has retired. I would bet money that my father was Chip's check airman at some point during his career, however, I've never mentioned Chip's name to him to verify. I did work for the company and loved every single minute of my tenure there because of my love for aviation and the wonderful conglomerate of people that work for US.
I believe that what Chip has stated has merit and IF you've actually read anything I've written, I don't ever disagree with his strong message. I do, however, disagree with his tone, his repetitive badgering, and consider it to be unnecessary and extremely condescending to the employees. They're not idiots and are quite aware of the situation (they're living it) and how extremely important their votes are to the future of US Airways.
I believe that what Chip has stated has merit and IF you've actually read anything I've written, I don't ever disagree with his strong message. I do, however, disagree with his tone, his repetitive badgering, and consider it to be unnecessary and extremely condescending to the employees. They're not idiots and are quite aware of the situation (they're living it) and how extremely important their votes are to the future of US Airways.
[BR][BR]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/5/2003 2:58:02 PM Do_it_for_Dave wrote: [BR][BR]SDavis...you mentioned that one is unable to file for unemployment if they quit. Well, since all of the NO voters already have a "Plan B" or another job lined up, there isn't a reason why they should need to file unemployment.[BR][BR]I assume that you are a furlough employee, so you should desire that all of these contracts are ratified. This will mean a possiblity that you could be recalled. If you are a CWA member, you will have flight benefits for your family for 3 years.[BR][BR]If you have moved on to another occupation, you shouldn't try to "take down the ship" as a possible bitter ex-employee.[BR][BR]Everyone likes to mention WN and their $23-$25 hour salaries. Guess what! WN has made a profit every year for the last 20+ years. Their employees deserve their high salaries based upon their profits. WN isn't in chapter 11 on the verge of liquidation either. You should be happy if they company is offering $13.01. As Chip has stated, stop complaining and QUIT!! Please QUIT and allow us to turn around this company.----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE][BR][BR]i have not seen 1 no voter who claimed to have a plan "b"...u are correct i am on furlough...health benefits and severance pay is done..[BR]as far as recall..i am not sure if what i will come back to is going to be all the enticing. it was a well paying job nothing more...[BR]as far as flt benefits go...you can have them....you cant plan on anything with them..its great if you work in a hub..1 flt to anywhere...if you dont get on you go home...tickets are cheap...remember.[BR]i am not bitter , personally i could care less...i did have a plan "B" . unlike many of my co workers, [BR]i did plan for a rainy day....[BR]i have never mentioned wn or their 23-25 an hour...that airline gets it....we have our nice little fences to keep the fluff contained...[BR]also i am not trying to take the ship down...it is doing fine all by itself...the point that keeps getting missed is the fact that for once all the groups who have jeopardized the very existence of this airline in the past without regard to any other groups are now pleading for their very survival. i have not once asked anyone to vote no...that is up to each individual. [BR]you are also correct that wn deserves top dollar...but the reason that they are making money and we are not is in a nutshell....management (or lack there of). who agreed to all the contracts that put us where we are to begin with....ie productivity...seems the unions had the gun at one time..[BR]and in a reverse of fates the company bowed...the groups who still have the most to lose are also the groups who have given the most .[BR]why should i quit....i dont have to deal with it anyway...if the company survives and things turn around i will still have a choice whether to go back or not..[BR]bottom line is what you are asking for from certain groups is a death sentence. [BR]if someone would let cust service/fleet know the scope of expressing out cities..it just might change a few views..right now...big ten and hope....[BR][BR][BR]ps..chip i thought the browns were going to do it..i was pulling for them[BR][BR][BR]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/5/2003 2:58:02 PM Do_it_for_Dave wrote: [BR][BR]SDavis...you mentioned that one is unable to file for unemployment if they quit. Well, since all of the NO voters already have a "Plan B" or another job lined up, there isn't a reason why they should need to file unemployment.[BR][BR]I assume that you are a furlough employee, so you should desire that all of these contracts are ratified. This will mean a possiblity that you could be recalled. If you are a CWA member, you will have flight benefits for your family for 3 years.[BR][BR]If you have moved on to another occupation, you shouldn't try to "take down the ship" as a possible bitter ex-employee.[BR][BR]Everyone likes to mention WN and their $23-$25 hour salaries. Guess what! WN has made a profit every year for the last 20+ years. Their employees deserve their high salaries based upon their profits. WN isn't in chapter 11 on the verge of liquidation either. You should be happy if they company is offering $13.01. As Chip has stated, stop complaining and QUIT!! Please QUIT and allow us to turn around this company.----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE][BR][BR]i have not seen 1 no voter who claimed to have a plan "b"...u are correct i am on furlough...health benefits and severance pay is done..[BR]as far as recall..i am not sure if what i will come back to is going to be all the enticing. it was a well paying job nothing more...[BR]as far as flt benefits go...you can have them....you cant plan on anything with them..its great if you work in a hub..1 flt to anywhere...if you dont get on you go home...tickets are cheap...remember.[BR]i am not bitter , personally i could care less...i did have a plan "B" . unlike many of my co workers, [BR]i did plan for a rainy day....[BR]i have never mentioned wn or their 23-25 an hour...that airline gets it....we have our nice little fences to keep the fluff contained...[BR]also i am not trying to take the ship down...it is doing fine all by itself...the point that keeps getting missed is the fact that for once all the groups who have jeopardized the very existence of this airline in the past without regard to any other groups are now pleading for their very survival. i have not once asked anyone to vote no...that is up to each individual. [BR]you are also correct that wn deserves top dollar...but the reason that they are making money and we are not is in a nutshell....management (or lack there of). who agreed to all the contracts that put us where we are to begin with....ie productivity...seems the unions had the gun at one time..[BR]and in a reverse of fates the company bowed...the groups who still have the most to lose are also the groups who have given the most .[BR]why should i quit....i dont have to deal with it anyway...if the company survives and things turn around i will still have a choice whether to go back or not..[BR]bottom line is what you are asking for from certain groups is a death sentence. [BR]if someone would let cust service/fleet know the scope of expressing out cities..it just might change a few views..right now...big ten and hope....[BR][BR][BR]ps..chip i thought the browns were going to do it..i was pulling for them[BR][BR][BR]
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