Kent George comes a-knockin'

[gso2pit]

I agree with every commuter in the system. PIT is a far superior airport compared to PHL. That being said, PIT was a regional dream of an international carrier. So long as PHL continues to bring in the $$$ there is no place for a PIT Hub. Added to that, it makes no sense from a flight planning point of view. There is no location in the current US Airway system that can not be reached from PHL or PIT, so why have two?

Unless PHL drops off the face of the planet (and there were days I couldn't pray hard enough) PIT will never see the commitment from US Airways that it once had.

The dynamics of the airline industry have certainly changed since 9/11. PIT will never have the kind of commitment it once had from US. NOBODY is disputing that. However, US certainly can do more with PIT than it currently is. Why not use it as a seasonal hub of sorts? They need to see what value there is in PIT and use it as an asset, not a liability.

 

[Barbell]

Very well put.

I endorse that reply.

From my own personal experience w/ Mr. George's group, as a fairly public individual at HP a few years back, I was approached by several members of this group to put up a competing HP hub against US in PIT. Even then they didn't want to support us.

As a competing carrier the initial reasons seemed very compelling (and we've all heard them before): nice facilities, internationally headquartered companies, excellent connecting opportunities, yada, yada, yada. The problem? When you started to dig in and really started looking at the business side of things (because, after all, we are trying to make money here), a hub-level presence in PIT just doesn't make sense. Take a look at the track record: FL attempted to make a competing hub operation and the community wouldn't support it, the majority of the traffic out of PIT at that time was connecting, and while they wanted additional competing service, they were unwilling to offer support on other service that was not all nonstop all the time. Can't say that I blame them, but they want to eat their cake and have it, too.

As a purely business decision, you got to put your eggs in the basket that turns them golden, and while nonstop service to Europe from PIT is nice, I doubt the traffic is there for what they're asking. And while PHL is rough, PIT has mainline service that doesn't have to deal w/ F, so it's not like you have that mess to deal with. Watch your press releases (yeah, right), but don't look for any significant changes to PIT any time soon.

 

[Jimmy Neutron]

I endorse that reply.

From my own personal experience w/ Mr. George's group, as a fairly public individual at HP a few years back, I was approached by several members of this group to put up a competing HP hub against US in PIT. Even then they didn't want to support us.

As a competing carrier the initial reasons seemed very compelling (and we've all heard them before): nice facilities, internationally headquartered companies, excellent connecting opportunities, yada, yada, yada. The problem? When you started to dig in and really started looking at the business side of things (because, after all, we are trying to make money here), a hub-level presence in PIT just doesn't make sense. Take a look at the track record: FL attempted to make a competing hub operation and the community wouldn't support it, the majority of the traffic out of PIT at that time was connecting, and while they wanted additional competing service, they were unwilling to offer support on other service that was not all nonstop all the time. Can't say that I blame them, but they want to eat their cake and have it, too.

As a purely business decision, you got to put your eggs in the basket that turns them golden, and while nonstop service to Europe from PIT is nice, I doubt the traffic is there for what they're asking. And while PHL is rough, PIT has mainline service that doesn't have to deal w/ F, so it's not like you have that mess to deal with. Watch your press releases (yeah, right), but don't look for any significant changes to PIT any time soon.

I think what the real problem that everyone is still missing is that no matter what kind of money they bring in through PHL, they probably send more of it back out due the airport being one of the worst rated ones in the country. Remember, low costs can only be achieved through efficient operations, and PHL has none at all.
Ask yourself this, how much does it cost when an aircraft sits on tne taxiway for 30 to 60 min., that' just about every flight-everyday in PHL. Just ask any out station how many PAWOB claims they take a month just from PHL. Just ask about anyone what kind of employees are being hired in PHL. And the list just goes on and on and on....
So if De-hubbing PIT and moving more flts to PHL was tne answer, how come we ended back up in BK so fast, and why can't we make money?
This is a service industry plain and simple, so as long as we continue to screw people by using PHL as our primary connecting hub, the money will continue to bleed. Believe it

 

[SilentWarrior]

Jimmy Neutron,

No one is arguing that PIT is more efficient that PHL. Three things to point out however.

1.The company sees things this way. (Again these figures are made up)
Philadelphia's revenue brings in $12 million a month. Of that $2 million is spent on inefficiencies (lost luggage, taxi holds, etc...)
Pittsburgh's revenue brings in $8 million a month. Of that maybe $500,000 is lost in inefficiencies.

Based on population PIT would have to draw all the customers from Cleveland, Erie, State College, and points south to match the O&D generated by PHL. To move the majority of the flights to PIT would ignore that revenue generating base. As you stated, you are in a service industry, and the numbers will win every time. Originating passengers are the cheapest kind, it cost the airline nothing to get them to the airport.

2.The problems with PAWOB claims would not be solved completely by moving operations to PIT. So long as you continue to pack a 50 seat aircraft with 50 passengers and baggage, and expect it to fly a 2-2.5 hour segment, you will continue to have this problem. US Airways does share some of the blame for the baggage handling system in PHL. Only for the fact that if it continually fails, they need to be the one to put pressure on the City of Philadelphia to fix it.

3.If you move operations to PIT, you would then have to establish a shuttle type service PHL-PIT with a very high frequency to cater to the PHL customer base. Now you are competing directly against an established low-cost carrier, and US will be running at a loss on that route.

I agree with gso2pit. PIT is not a liability. It's just in the wrong geographical area to be utilized to it's potential.

 

[Jimmy Neutron]

No one is saying that you would have to move all of the flights to PIT....
Just think how the airline operated under say Ed Colodny, he is after all the one who set this airline up from the start.
His philosophy is that to be a successfull hub and spoke carrier you must be able to move huge volumes of passengers/cargo = revenue through that facility in high volume and very efficiently. That is take everyone that wants to go somewhere into a place they like to go and have an enjoyable experience then send them on to the next destination. He knew the importance of PHL as an O & D operation and had it set up that way.
Put the correct number of flights in and out of PHL to pick up all of the originating traffic and send all others who want to go somewhere else into PIT. There is no need to fly say 6 flights a day to JAX just to pick up say 2 plane loads of originating passengers, and screw all the rest who want to go to JAX, but now have to travel through the KNOWN nightmare.
Lets face it when we pulled our operations in that direction, we lost a whole bunch of loyal customers, and trust me there are thousands of them. They won't be back.
That just makes for lost revenue.


http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-re...s/s_209004.html :huh:

 

[SilentWarrior]

...
Lets face it when we pulled our operations in that direction, we lost a whole bunch of loyal customers, and trust me there are thousands of them. They won't be back.
That just makes for lost revenue.
...

I do agree with you there.

As I said, it was just the way the company may look at it.

Maybe hub PIT and roll PHL. I know the “roll PHLâ€￾ was tried not to long ago.
PIT can take care of everything north of Florida, and east of Vegas (one or two flights to the west-coast markets, Florida markets, and Europe markets).
PHL would handle strictly leisure markets (Europe, Caribbean, Florida, and everything west of Vegas).

Sounds nice, and might work. One glaring thing however is CLT. CLT is in a geographically friendly area (when looking at the rest of US/East system). I don't know what the numbers are as to CLT maximum traffic load, but you could insert CLT for PIT above and it would still work. The fact that it is established as a hub helps as well.

I am afraid that PIT was dealt a hard hand. As much as I want PIT to play a bigger role in all of this, it is just not going to happen. If you take PIT and plunk it down in the Mid-West then yes, it would be the hottest aviation commodity available.

 

[supercruiser]

Remember that PIT was a successful hub for Allegheny/US Air for over 30+ years, while PHL sat over there for the last 200 years with a larger population, more O/D traffic, potential to generate more revenue, etc. Interestingly, US Airways started the downhill slide as PHL was beefed up as a hub. Coincidence or cause and effect?

 

[ClueByFour]

Very well put. And USAirways never has and never will have support from Allegheny County or the city. They whinned and cried about our strangle hold, but nobody else wanted to come in...we were always the bad guys. Now we've pulled down operations, and new carriers are coming in...and guess what...we are STILL the bad guys. Go figure.....

Who do you think paid for the airport? Hint: not US. 10 years on 30 years worth of bonds, and they dumped the rest in BK1.

I'd say a billion dollars is a good bit of support.

 

[AstroLounge]

Very well put. And USAirways never has and never will have support from Allegheny County or the city. They whinned and cried about our strangle hold, but nobody else wanted to come in...we were always the bad guys. Now we've pulled down operations, and new carriers are coming in...and guess what...we are STILL the bad guys. Go figure.....

I have to AGREE as well! The airport in PIT is one of the Best in the world but the region certainly cannot support a major Hub (post 9/11 and all the related bs). I have worked out of PIT for many years and have never felt any "warm fuzzy feelings" towards the City and the customer base......they flew us because they had to but bashed US every chance that got......loyalty/committment is a two way street. PHL is America's "Baghdad" and I really try to avoid it, CLT has their act together but I will say the employees of PIT were probably some of the hardest working people.

 

[burghlaw1]

Who do you think paid for the airport? Hint: not US. 10 years on 30 years worth of bonds, and they dumped the rest in BK1.

I'd say a billion dollars is a good bit of support.

let's add to that all of the offers of financial support, and to build new facilities, hangars, etc. to keep US happy.

With regard to all of the claims that the community did not support US, its patently false. Airtran failed in PIT because everyone still wanted to fly US and the corporations had contracts with US. And in all honesty, there were many times when I flew that US was the cheapest fare. But on the monopoly routes, fares were monopoly prices. And let's face it, when you are the only player in town, or the biggest player in town, you are always going to be the target of criticism, deserved or not. Didn't I recently hear that someone asked Parker when US would "rationalize" fares in CLT. I think he responded that they were rationalized even if everyone thinks they are "too high."

That having been said, I don't look for U to have a large hub presence in PIT anymore. US downsized so significantly that there was no way to service 3 hubs and, by all indications, the most expensive got bumped. From a business perspective I understand it. From a member of the community that is footing the bill for the airport, I don't like it; but again it was perfectly legal to dump the lease in bankruptcy.

I also don't see US rebuilding the hub here because it has lost the monopoly advantage that made the hub work. It's not the O&D traffic either; otherwise Charlotte wouldn't work as a hub. There are also other similarly sized cities that have hubs: CVG, MSP to name a couple.

I've often thought that other airlines (and maybe even US some day) would expand service here if air travel continues to grow significantly and the larger O&D airports cannot expand enough to accomodate the increased capacity. It's speculative and likely a number of years out.

But to say that this community never supported US is flat out wrong.

 

[hula-flyguy]

Allegheny county did not pay for the airport. The taxpayers of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania paid for it.

And it's a damn good thing, cause where would WN be without this beautiful facility? The people of Pittsburgh got what they wanted...cheaper fares. I'm sure they are happy, right? Oh no, wait...it wasn't cheaper fares they wanted, it was convenience....but not willing to pay for convenience.....dayum....they cant figure out what the hell they want. Perhaps WN will hub PIT, and the people of the burgh will be happy once again....lol

 

[SpinDoc]

Huh?

The whole point to having a hub airport is to
have an efficient connecting point for customers
from the spokes.

PIT is at least as efficient as CLT, if not
more so. PHL is downright inefficient.

The crack smoking whores (previous leaders)
of US made an error by putting all their eggs
in the PHL basket, period. We can debate
this all day, but there is no getting around
the expense that is created by PHL inefficiency
on a daily basis, and the "supposed" O&D
revenues can't possibly be enough to overcome
the expenses.

Here is my take on the PIT hub drawdown:

1. When an airline, or any company for
that fact, is in BK, cash is king.
Short-term cash flow is the priority to
keep the enterprise going and shore up
the bottom line.

2. Expenses need to be lowered in order to
attract exit financing and convince vendors
and other "partners" that the company can
make it as a going concern.

PHL was selected as the East Coast hub
over PIT because of critical mass for O&D
traffic. Short-term, the operational
expenses were lower than PIT and the
cash coming in the door was higher.

PIT was an expensive hub because the
majority of the employees were senior and
had expensive wages and benefits. The
local traffic was smaller than PHL and the
cost per enplanement was very high due
to maturing debt to pay for the airport
construction. What to do? Reject airport
and related property leases, draw down the
PIT hub, release excess expensive employees,
and close supporting reservations,
marketing, and maintenance offices.

Are you with me so far? PIT was indeed
a liability 2 years ago, but only a short
term liability that had to be sacrificed
to get rid of senior employees and
airport construction debt.

Fast forward to 2006. Most of the
senior work force in PIT have taken
early retirement and the majority of the
construction debt has been nullified
by the BK court. Cost per enplanement
has dropped sufficiently to allow "El
Cheapo" Southwest to come to town.
Costs in PHL are rising and capacity
is reaching the maximum amount.
Something has to give.

Doug Parker is a smart man. My money
says that US shifts the bulk of their
domestic connecting traffic back to
PIT in the next 12 months. It just
makes sense to get the type of
operational efficieny that is needed to
make the LCC model work.

 

[EyeInTheSky]

Allegheny county did not pay for the airport. The taxpayers of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania paid for it.

And it's a damn good thing, cause where would WN be without this beautiful facility? The people of Pittsburgh got what they wanted...cheaper fares. I'm sure they are happy, right? Oh no, wait...it wasn't cheaper fares they wanted, it was convenience....but not willing to pay for convenience.....dayum....they cant figure out what the hell they want. Perhaps WN will hub PIT, and the people of the burgh will be happy once again....lol

Have another Mai Tai hula guy... 🙄

 

[hula-flyguy]

gladly

 

[PITbull]

I have to AGREE as well! The airport in PIT is one of the Best in the world but the region certainly cannot support a major Hub (post 9/11 and all the related bs). I have worked out of PIT for many years and have never felt any "warm fuzzy feelings" towards the City and the customer base......they flew us because they had to but bashed US every chance that got......loyalty/committment is a two way street. PHL is America's "Baghdad" and I really try to avoid it, CLT has their act together but I will say the employees of PIT were probably some of the hardest working people.

Astro,

You working out of PIT, you must know how hard the Airport authority and the County Executive tried their damndest to keep U in PIT. I was there.

There was no convincing Siegel. He mislead the county into believing they would keep their leases until 20 minutes before emerging from BK in 2003...then they slammed PIT and the operation by terminating the leases. PIT State reps were very active on the "Hill" to secure the ATSB loan for USAirways and advocated their survival. U's betrayl turned into "good business sense" according to the management...

NOPE. U had it coming to them. All the sarcasm and bad blood that ensued from a deceitful management is justified in all the press. The Community and the Press supported the employees of U, but not the management, as did labor leaders as well.

And at this point, Allegheny County Airport Authority will never make the mistake of depending on a carrier who claims to bargain in good faith again. Whats good for the community is what counts...and thats not U anymore.

Welcome SW, NW, CO, American, Delta, USA 3000, AirTran etc... There is more OD traffic then ever in PIT's history.

And the community welcomes this new change.

Supercruiser's observation couldn't be more accurate then stated. The operation in PHL will continue to cripple's U's bottom line. And Doug, just like his predecesors and holding on to Al C. will continue to be blinded by those he depends on to do the numbers.