Labor vs. Labor - Where are we headed?

sabre

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Aug 20, 2002
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I would add the following though. I hear our ramp is making about 5% more than regional ramp people. Mechanics here make about 10% more than regional mechanics according to the-mechanic rates on regionals.
However, some have said that pilots at U make on average close to 40% of a regional pilot.

No disrespect but it is fundamentally the same job. Add to that pilots at Airtran and other low cost airlines that are killing us because their pilots are making no more than glorified regional pay.

Should U have to pay pilots such high rates just for seniority? Keep in mind that U has several pilots that will still bring home over $200,000 this year. Sounds crazy for a bankrupt airline.

If I'm a pilot I vote no on anything that David tries to sell me, so I'm not saying a pilot should have to take a pay cut, I'm just putting out some comparisons.
 

autofixer

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Aug 20, 2002
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sabre, If you want to compare AirTran and regionals to U, lets do it all the way. Let U get rid of about 3000 mechanics to put U in line with the competetion. Let U have 2 part-time rampers work each flight. They will pull up the jetway and marshall in the airplane. When these two rampers are done loading(and they won't care because they are going to be young part-time college students) one will push the airplane back, while the other heads on to the next gate to marshall in the next flight and operatet the jetway. Let U get rid of reservations and hire work at home moms to do the work from home on their home PCs. Let U get rid of Utility and contract out aircraft cleaning at hubs; at out stations the flight attendants will clean (they won't care because they will be young part-time college students). Let U get rid of all of the high time experienced pilots and hire 22 year olds. They will work for nothing, because they will be excited to fly jets. Let these young guys pay for their training every six months, they should feel honored to fly jets. When they start to ask for higher wages, fire them and replace them with new youngsters. At they savings rate you could afford a hull loss every couple of years! As you can see, it is not employee saleries that has put U in a no win situation; it is featherbedding. This is why even after the restructuring, U cannot and will never be able to compete. This is why U is to be at 10+ cents per seat mile after the restructuring...3+ cents per mile above the competetion. Again, it is 30 years of featherbedding, getting on your buddy or sister at the airline. The cash cow is dry. The gravy train is no more. JMHO
 

UAL777flyer

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Aug 20, 2002
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Once again, keep in mind who is calling the shots here, folks. The creditor's committee and the bankruptcy judge have the ultimate control over US Airways while they're in bankruptcy. Siegel must get buy-off for virtually every decision. And so long as the ATSB loan guarantee money isn't in US Airways hands, US will be forced to continually adjust their business plan to arrive at the required result (7% margin). I'm quite confident that Siegel isn't looking for more cost cuts because he wants to, but more because he has to.
 

flyinlegal

Newbie
Oct 28, 2002
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Pitguy: I've been reading your comments re: pilots' pay and I can't stay silent any longer. You have to understand. We train for years just to get to a measly commuter or charter job with little or no benefits, horrible working hours and the prospect of being on food stamps. All this after paying, on the average over $40,000 for flight training just to get this point. The privilege of becoming a pilot brings with it extreme responsibility for the safety and well-being of many - and along with that high doses of stress, marital problems, and the rest. I've never heard of a desk flying into a mountain. I wish you could attend an inital ground school - or ride along during a bad snow or thunderstorm, with no deviation possible. Maybe you would have more of an appreciation for what airline pilots do. Everyone, in every position at an airline deserves respect - not ill-educated comments.
 

pitguy

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Aug 21, 2002
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flyinlegal,

Thanks for your reply. I appreciate your concern regarding my comments. I wish you would have jumped in when your fellow pilots were having there time at mechanic bashing. They were relentless.
 

exjetgurl

Member
Aug 31, 2002
77
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[P]Chip,[/P]
[P]Confuscious say: He with big tongue should learn to suck big egg. (that was a joke) I feel sad having to say that was a joke but there are those starched personalities on here that wouldn't get it unless I had a subnote to clarify my dumb joke. Basically Chip, sometimes yinz gotta learn to bite your tongue. [/P]
 

exjetgurl

Member
Aug 31, 2002
77
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[P]Pitguy,[/P]
[P]I just cannot for the life of me understand why fellow employees would bash one another. For the love of God, why on earth tear each other down when the cold hard reality is all you have left is one another??? I mean, think about it?? Now is the time for unity not stupidity! Furthermore, no one employee should appoint himself/herself Moses and go on this 10 commandments diatribe on what a certain workgroup should or should not do. That's just downright sociopathic. Everybody wants to rule the world.......[/P]
 

pitguy

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Aug 21, 2002
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Several pilots thought nothing about sticking their noses into mechanic issues and now it is time for a little feedback. If they did not want feedback they should have not gave so much unwanted advice to the mechanics. Allot of pilots thought it was humorous when they were stepping on the mechanics. Those who live in glass palaces should not throw stones.

No sympathy here. They danced to the music and now it is time to pay the fiddler.


Just because I may express my views which are not popular amongst the pilots does not make them true.

Mother always said If you can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen.

Rambo said They drew first blood. (hehe)
 
OP
C

chipmunn

Guest
US Airways negotiated $500 million in debtor-in-possession (DIP) financing with a financing consortium consisting of TPG, CSFB, and BOA. On the first day of bankruptcy, the court approved the release to the debtor of $75 million with additional tranches dependent on obtaining target cost reduction labor restructuring agreements.

Prior to the September 26 Omnibus Hearing, RSA reached agreement with US Airways (the debtor) and the court to replace the DIP financing consortium and to become the Equity Plan Sponsor. As the new DIP financier, RSA offered to provide the debtor $300 at the September 26 hearing and $200 million at the November 7 Omnibus Hearing which the court approved.

However, with the deepening airline industry financial crisis due to deteriorating fundamentals, US Airways notified the

What’s important here is that US Airways is operating under court supervision and must have a Plan of Reorganization approved regardless of what employees or the company desire. According to reports from last Tuesday’s Section 341 meeting, the company notified the creditors committee it needed $100 to $300 million per year in additional cuts to become a profitable business entity.

Two days later US Airways said in a Securities and Exchange Commission filing it would need to further trim expenses if it is to regain profitability, win a federal loan guarantee and receive further debtor-in-possession funding.

The issue for all airline employees and interested parties to understand is that the U.S. airline industry is undergoing a meltdown. The external fundamental issues are dramatically increasing costs and depressing revenues, which make few options.

Published reports indicate US Airways employee W-2 is not the issue, it's productivity and the underfunded pension. Do I like these issues? Absolutely not, but it's fact.

In my opinion, either the employees and management work together to solve the financial problems or the court will order a corporate liquidation.

Chip
 

exjetgurl

Member
Aug 31, 2002
77
0
[P]Pitguy,[/P]
[P]I can assure you, 99.9% of the pilots I know support the mechanics. Keep in mind, the .001% that have a big yapper (and are unfortunately hooked to the Internet) do not speak for all pilots or any other employee group for that matter. Everyone needs to stay focused and keep the big picture in perspective. And for crying out loud, everyone should respect each other. Everyone (especially those furloughed) should be shown a little respect and some diplomacy. [/P]
 

Bob Owens

Veteran
Sep 9, 2002
14,274
6,112
Why is it acceptable that Banks only give a 2% rate of interest yet the government expects a Financially troubled airline to produce a 7% ROI? Has any airline ever consistantly produced such returns?

Last year at the IRRA (Industrial Relation Research Association) Conference in DC a Bush spokesman came out and said that the administration would use its powers to insure that economical air transportation continues to be provided. He went further by saying that if a company does not earn high profits they cant pay high wages and that the people would not be held hostage by airline workers and that they had just better accept the fact of low ages.
The 7% ROI figure came from the Presidents office. Funny but the Presidents former enterprise could not reach this mark. The Board is made up of one representative of the Federal reserve and two members from the Presidents administration. The Federal Reserve, through Greenspan has repeatedly taken an anti-worker stance. Time and time again the Federal Reserve has taken steps to increase unemployment to reduce wage growth which the Fed is against because they claim its inflationary. Apparently the Fed is of the opinion that the only people who deserve income growth are those who receive such income through capital investments, labor should be treated as a commodity in which the price is suppressed to maximize the growth of investments. The other two board members are from the most hostile anti-labor administration since Reagan. The original act was put in place to insure that communities that had Air Service prior to Sept11 continue to receive Air Service, It said that executives that made over $300,000 would have a two year pay freze- no pay cuts for them just a freeze at 2000 rates. The original Act has been perverted by the administration into a mechanism to lower wages. Remember that on November 5.
 

Bob Owens

Veteran
Sep 9, 2002
14,274
6,112
In my opinion, either the employees and management work together to solve the financial problems or the court will order a corporate liquidation.

One of the great falacies of the management culture that has evolved over the last two decades is that money is not a motivator. There are cases where money does not provide incentive for superior performance. For example if you are leasing a brand new 737 for $1,000,000 a year or $1 a year its performance will be the same. However with people its different. The greatest motivator for people is need. What do people usually need the most? Money. There are other needs but from work, money is the number one objective.
If USAIR should come back to its workers for more cuts the resulting loss of performance could be more costly than the savings. Their best bet is to go after the leases. I've read where they will take their ball and go home. How much income is generated from an aircraft that is sitting in the desert? Aircraft in storage still have to be maintained. So if they take their planes back they now become an expense. They will have to pay for the storage and maintenence of the aircraft. They are not likely to find someone else who wants to rent them.
The US flies more than any other country, by a long shot. According to The Economist the US Aviation industry generates 1,056,767,000,000 passenger miles per year, the next closest is the UK at 259979 million. The US flies more than the next 9 countries combined.

Chip may have a point in encouraging co-operation. Submission or surrender are a different story. Prior to voting to accept the concessions you were lead to beleive that your sacrifices would save the company. Apparently more is needed. When it comes to increasing productivity you should do whatever you can. You have to be there eight hours any way. But you never should in effect pay the company for the privilege of working for them by accepting cuts.

$6 million in bonuses for them, pay cuts for you.

If the company announces that they are no longer considering such bonuses until all employees are restored it would knock that $100 to $300 million shortfall to $96 to $294 Million.