Lead mech refuses pledge to flag at union meeting

[freedom]

The flag is a symbol of our country. The Constitution is the very SOUL of our country.

You obviously don't know, or don't care to know, the difference. Every soldier and marine fighting and dying for our freedoms now, in the past and in the future has taken an oath to "protect and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic." I took it myself, and was proud to do so.

There is NOTHING in that oath that talks about the flag. History is replete with countries that demanded pledges of allegiance as a demonstration of patriotism. We all know which countries those were and are. When individuals refused, people like you were the first to react with varying levels of violence. If not restrained by the laws and freedoms we enjoy here, you would probably be doing the same thing judging from your post. People like you disgust me and every freedom loving American.

DID YOU READ WHAT I WROTE.... please find me the section where i write that this indivual should be FORCED BY LAW to take the pledge . i didn't write that so don't put words into my mouth mister i love people who don't love their own country .

If you come up to me and say that you hate this country and you hope everyone in it dies , it's my right to tell you to go #### yourself . If you burn the constitution and yell this thing is garbage while your doing it , i can yell back at you "dumbass "
If you won't take a plede of allegence to your country , i can think less of you , ITS A RIGHT . MY RIGHT .

But no , in YOUR world we must NEVER judge anyone , hey if this guy hates our country , and our laws and what we stand for , who are WE to judge .... yes , lets all sit idely by and not try and combat this mentality , i mean it would be so very wrong for us to even have a differing opinion , conflict is so wrong ....

You took an oath to your country yet you don't seem to posses ANY fire in you when presented with individuals who care less if you had died on the battle field to save their rights . If yours is the patrotism of the future , then i fear for our nations posterity .

STAND FOR NOTHING FALL FOR EVERYTHING .

 

[EastUS]

You took an oath to your country yet you don't seem to posses ANY fire in you when presented with individuals who care less if you had died on the battle field to save their rights . If yours is the patrotism of the future , then i fear for our nations posterity .

Well sir..I've proudly worn the Flag on flight suits in unpleasant scenarios...and I've still got to go with the idea that America's all about FREEDOM...period. While I might personally be equally disgusted with some jerk refusing to stand/Pledge/etc...it's about Rights. I consider it unfair of you to question another as being a poor representative of "the patrotism of the future" without knowing his/her circumstances, or Service.

PS: We're not ever going to win wars by beating up on each other for differences of opinion. Such is done solely by killing the enemy in batch lots, and otherwise destroying their groups ability to fight.

 

[freedom]

Well sir..I've proudly worn the Flag on flight suits in unpleasant scenarios...and I've still got to go with the idea that America's all about FREEDOM...period. While I might personally be equally disgusted with some jerk refusing to stand/Pledge/etc...it's about Rights. I consider it unfair of you to question another as being a poor representative of "the patrotism of the future" without knowing his/her circumstances, or Service.

PS: We're not ever going to win wars by beating up on each other for differences of opionion. Such is done solely by killing the enemy.

Patrotism is dying , and i'm alive to watch it . Every step we take back is another we will never take again . It doesn't seem like much , not taking the pledge , but i see it for what it is , another retreat from standing firm for our country . In todays society , we have become more obessed with ME MYSELF AND I than ever ... I fear there may be more people in the miltiary now for a college education than for love of their country . People are so caught up in their own lives that they feel less and less for their nation, for our people , better to put on their ipod than interact with the world around them .
I respect the RIGHT to burn flags , copies of the consitution or anything else for that matter , but i do not repsect the people doing it . All i'm saying is that they have the right to do so , and i have the right to dislike them for doing so . As has been said by NYC the flag is a symbol of our country ,and it is for me .... So when you symbolilcy reject our nation , i reject you .
NYC has the right to his opinion , and just because he served in the miltary does not give him a free pass . I will not be silenced out of respect for his service . His thinking is flawed , read all of his posts . He would have us NOT deride those who burn our flags , our constiutions , who talk badly about us ... I'm not saying we should make these offences , but i'm not going to look the other way while it happens either .If no one cares , these people who hate us so much will feel more and more emboldened , and someday it won't be a flag or a copy of the constutuion they will be burning but the senate .i know ,it's a stretch , but i keep the firewall high .

p.s thank you for your service .

 

[Bear96]

Too much patriotism is a dangerous thing.

 

[freedom]

Too much patriotism is a dangerous thing.

and a total lack of it in the general population can also be a dangerous thing .

You have to understand our history and our laws to understand where my love for country comes from . i love my country deeply and i respect our laws . Not everything we do as a nation is right , more often than not we've been lead astry by our polticans , but if you look deep down at the roots of our country , we are a people that belive in peace and freedom, the freedom to worship as you see fit , or not worship at all , to say what you like , or say nothing .We are a country that welcomes people from all over the world with open arms , and this makes us stronger, we are from many and are now of one .
Perhaps the reason i come down so hard on those who won't take the pledge , is that as a child i at times wouldn't either .When i was very young i didn't understand the scrafice that others had given so that i could even grow up to begin with .Men have died holding our flag on the battle field , and men have died holding our flag in peacefull protest. It is a symbol of us as is the pledge of alleigence . It is a pledge not to a thing the flag , but to the spirt of our nation , to our freedoms to what we hold dear and to each other .

 

[EastUS]

and a total lack of it in the general population can also be a dangerous thing .

Fully concur there sir.

 

[EMBFA]

Anyone who wants to beat someone up for not reciting a poem has no idea what America or freedom means.

 

[Hello Newman]

If they can not pledge allegiance to the US flag due to religious reasons, they certainly should not be pledging allegiance to a Union either, and especially not be a leader/officer of one.

My guess is this is just a union dope trying to be a tough-guy.

BACK IN HIGH SCHOOL WE HAD SOME LEFT WING KIDS WHO WOULDNT STAND FOR THE PLEDGE OR NATIONAL ANTHEM AT SCHOOL ASSEMBLIES. AS ONE SAID TO ME "I DONT BELIEVE IN WHAT THIS COUNTRY STANDS FOR", ODDLY ENOUGH NONE OF THEM EVER MOVED TO A TOTALITARIAN STATE

 

[Bear96]

and a total lack of it in the general population can also be a dangerous thing .

How?

 

[700UW]

Bottom line is this country affords people to make their own choice, it was formed on freeing persecution for being differant.

And I would bet all of you bashing him for not saying are not sinners in one way or another.

 

[EastUS]

How?

Aww golly Bear...I dunno. Unlike the paper blizzards and chickensh-t hot air exchanges that pass for "battle" in courtrooms...a lack of national Will and focus loses real wars. Nations and empires do fall when their peoples grow "weak". Ours is properly based upon the tenants needed for some sustanance of Freedom...but there are no shortage of barbarians at the gates at any given time.

 

[UAL_TECH]

Too much patriotism is a dangerous thing.

How?

 

[N965VJ]

This will be a fun thread come Happy Hour.

 

[Bear96]

Aww golly Bear...I dunno. Unlike the paper blizzards and chickensh-t hot air exchanges that pass for "battle" in courtrooms...a lack of national Will and focus loses real wars.

If you are defining "patriotism" as "will" and a "focus" to get something done and nothing more, I would agree with you.

If you are defining "patriotism" as some sort of blind "love of country" and a feeling that one's country is superior to all others, and enjoy pledging allegiance to a piece of cloth, I disagree that lack of that "loses real wars."

How exactly are you defining patriotism? Based on your postings I had assumed you were using the latter definition I gave. My apologies if you were using the former.

Nations and empires do fall when their peoples grow "weak".

Examples?

Generally speaking, western Europeans have nowhere near the level of blind patriotism Americans have. Are western Europeans "weak"? If so, have western European nations "fallen"? My visits there seem to show western Europe is a pretty nice place to live.

Seems to me that too much arrogance and a feeling of invincibility (typical hallmarks of patriotism) are what causes nations to fall. (See for example the British and Roman empires of yore, and potentially the U.S. of the future.)

. . . there are no shortage of barbarians at the gates at any given time.

Increased levels of patriotism at home only seems to rile up the barbarians. See a connection?

How?

Glad you asked.

Too much patriotism can cloud a country's judgment and prevent it from objectively evaluating certain decisions and policies. A group mentality takes root: "We as Country X-ers can't be wrong because we are Country X and we're great!" Add a religious dimension to this ("God is on our side against those heathens and barbarians!") and you really have a problem.

As an immediate example, too much patriotism can lead a country into a needless war and blind it to the fact that the results are disastrous, causing the deaths of thousands and wasting billions (if not trillions) of dollars in a doomed effort. It can also create a dangerous climate where someone daring to point out that, "Gee, maybe we should reconsider what is going on," is accused of not supporting the troops and of being "unpatriotic."

Too much patriotism squelches dissent and a free exchange of ideas. Good ideas get lost in the process and are drowned out by "patriotic" ideas, even if those turn out to be unwise. It eliminates introspection and self-critical evaluation -- essential elements for an entity that wants to improve itself and learn from its mistakes in order to move forward.

THAT is what can cause a nation to fall.

 

[EastUS]

If you are defining "patriotism" as "will" and a "focus" to get something done and nothing more, I would agree with you.

If you are defining "patriotism" as some sort of blind "love of country" and a feeling that one's country is superior to all others, and enjoy pledging allegiance to a piece of cloth, I disagree that lack of that "loses real wars."

Seems to me that too much arrogance and a feeling of invincibility (typical hallmarks of patriotism) are what causes nations to fall. (See for example the British and Roman empires of yore, and potentially the U.S. of the future.)
Increased levels of patriotism at home only seems to rile up the barbarians. See a connection?

I see some combination of both national Will and focus...and yes, some degree of "blind" patriotism as a good prescription for triumph in the field. IMHO: There's a temporal element in play to be sure. We've the priveledge, and arguably even the duty, of fussing amongst ourselves...unless/until attacked from without, at which time some damping down of the "I hate America/my own country" is fully appropriate, and arguably necessary for success.

" Are western Europeans "weak"? If so, have western European nations "fallen"?" Most certainly they've fallen, pretty frequently in fact. Few western european nations have much traceable history within their current governmental forms, or geographic limits.

"Seems to me that too much arrogance and a feeling of invincibility (typical hallmarks of patriotism) are what causes nations to fall." Fully agreed that any feelings of invincibility and/or undue arrogance have proven fatal to many empires throughout time. Such are also very dangerous if/when coupled with a sense of invincibility that allows for the general citizenry to perceive no external threats....even when such are fully present.

"Increased levels of patriotism at home only seems to rile up the barbarians. See a connection?" I do see the idea, but I'm not of like mind sir. The empire historically most likely to fall's the one concerning itself with placating the barbarians...note Rome at the end/etc.

I've clearly no solution to the problem of continual "tribal warfare" within our species. I actually must confess to believing that it's tragically, an historically "normal" state to be in, as has been seen for most of mankind's time thus far. I'll offer that there was/there's been no unimaginably horrifc global conflict akin to WWII due to the standoff with the Soviets..and pretty much just the nuclear arsenals held on both sides therein. This nuclear "covenant" is no longer in place within a Cold War context, and isn't proof against total looney-toons such as the Islamic extremist bunch.

I do very much prefer for "us"/America to be on the winning side, regardless of the cost. I submit that throughout the history of conflict; it's never been the most socially disjointed, nor self doubting group that's won. We've a precarious balancing course to walk = maintaining Freedom for ourselves...and yet destroying those that would see us destroyed.