Legitimate Questions

[NYCDelta]

While I enjoy reading about the US/DL merger, I think there are a few legitimate questions that need to be asked. I think people are sometimes letting their emotions get the best of them and saying things they don't necessarily mean (at least I tell myself that). I, for one, have no personal problem with USAirways, or its employees. As I've mentioned before, I started my airline career at HP and still have great friends that work there. But, as a DL flight attendant, I have to ask the following:

1) If HP and US FA's are both represented by AFA, and the AFA constitutional bylaws stipulate DOH in a merger situation, then why isn't it done? What is the hold-up? And, why would anyone want to throw a 3rd airline into the mix, regardless of who it is?

2) As a DL employee, what benefit would come to us with this merger? We already have hubs in nearly the same places. I've been to almost every country in Europe with DL. We now have many routes to Central & South America, and I've even worked our NRT flight-once (and that was enough for me). I'm not boasting, I'm just looking for answers: what do we get out of this deal? It sounds like US would get more out of it than we would. Some US employees have even stated they would rather have NWA, because as they so eloquently put it, "DL is a crappy airline". By all means, I think most of us at DL would rather see US and NWA merge. It makes more sense for all those involved. Again, before anyone accuses me of feeling "superior" because I'm at DL, I just am looking for legitimate answers, sans emotions.

 

[USCREW]

1) If HP and US FA's are both represented by AFA, and the AFA constitutional bylaws stipulate DOH in a merger situation, then why isn't it done? What is the hold-up?

The hold-up is due to the details of the contracts, not related to the DOH issue.

 

[BoeingBoy]

USCREW answered #1 perfectly - the holdup is training, contracts, etc, not the seniority integration method. DOH will determine that because it's spelled out by the AFA.

#2 is harder because it depends on too many unknowns, though you correctly listed some of the knowns.

The unknowns include such things as the company's financial strength and stability, employee job security, growth prospects, competitiveness, etc. Nobody knows for sure what the longer term outlook is for DL (or any other carrier) either merged with US or as a standalone carrier, unless they have an awfully good crystal ball (or handy time machine!!). So everyone argues based on their view of how those unknowns will turn out or their view about what's best for them.

Jim

 

[NYCDelta]

1) If HP and US FA's are both represented by AFA, and the AFA constitutional bylaws stipulate DOH in a merger situation, then why isn't it done? What is the hold-up?

The hold-up is due to the details of the contracts, not related to the DOH issue.

Thanks for answering my question. I am glad that seniority is not what's holding it up. I truly believe everyone should get all their seniority in any merger. We've all worked hard to be where we are.

#2 is harder because it depends on too many unknowns, though you correctly listed some of the knowns.

The unknowns include such things as the company's financial strength and stability, employee job security, growth prospects, competitiveness, etc. Nobody knows for sure what the longer term outlook is for DL (or any other carrier) either merged with US or as a standalone carrier, unless they have an awfully good crystal ball (or handy time machine!!). So everyone argues based on their view of how those unknowns will turn out or their view about what's best for them.

Jim

You're right, Jim. But, and I may be naive here, taking out the unknowns, and just looking at the knowns: wouldn't UAL or NWA be a better partner for US (or DL for that matter) than US with DL?

 

[bigbusdrvr]

I think you have to step back a moment and consider that this proposed merger is not about what's in it for the employees of either airline. We at usairways learned in bankruptcy 1, and were reminded in no.2 this ever evolving theory of capitalism. "What is good for the share holder is all that matters"... For whatever reason that management, creditors, shareholders, etc. come up with to push this merger thru, or stop it, will have nothing to do with employee considerations. Perhaps contract considerations or the like will be considered, however this is just like meshing the cogs of a wheel to these people. They see employees as just a part of the machine i'm afraid. I dont believe C.E. Woolman, Tom Davis, nor Ed Colidny would have felt that way but that was a different era... I have a hard time getting upset with Mr. Parker, Mr. Griensten(sp) or the heads of the creditor comittees either. They will and must do what is best for their respective "shareholders". Remember someones 401k will go up at the expense of either this deal going thru or not.
The best this holiday season to all involved Delta, and Usairways alike.......

 

[NYCDelta]

The best this holiday season to all involved Delta, and Usairways alike.......

I second that!

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

NYCDelta,

Just my 2 cents worth;

The AFA issues involve AFA(Union) members only !

Once thats resolved, should the US/DL "event" take place, DL f/a should be stapled to the bottom of the seniority list, IN THE ORDER THAT THEY JOIN AFA, which I'm quite sure will happen, because if a "union representative" issue arise's, the current AFA members(US + HP "+" union leaning DL f/a's would become the Majority.

"NOW" if a representative election arise's, "AND" the majority of EVERYONE(US/HP AND DL f/a's ) hypothetically vote in , say the IBT, THEN perhaps everyone would be on "equal seniority footing", with some kind of factor to determine final union seniority.
(In the event that the "merger" goes through, and the issue of union representation aris's,If I was a DL f/a, I'd be pushing for the IBT to take over the Majority of ALL f/a's, therefore getting DL f/a's "more bang for their seniority" $ buck !!!!!!!

As to your point about does it benefit DL employees.

Though there are some benefits to combining both carriers, with the likelyhood that in reality the final numbers are ...100% US + HP, then say only 55/60% of DL employees, I'd be inclined to want to stay "stand alone" providing Jerry could raise the $$"MONETA" for a great reorganization plan !!


NH/BB's

 

[bigbusdrvr]

After rereading my previous post I realized I didnt say much to answer your question. I'll try to with a lot of wishful thinking for this holiday season!!

Maybe somewhere in the plan their will be expansion into the areas where we don't have overlap? Possibly a large push into the northwest U.S. and or the Pacific rim. This might negate the loss of jobs, relocation but not loss.

Only a view of the "plan" would show, of which I surly am not privy to. But I can only hope we all will have a spot and a comperable paycheck when all is said and done. Hopefully with the minimal amount of life upheaval as is possible.

If management and wallstreet put this together it will fall squarely on the backs of us employees to make it work. It is just money to them, but for us its our livelyhood, childrens education, etc...

If it does happen (merger) I feel confident the 90% of employees of the "New Delta" will pull together and carry the 10% that would gripe about winning the lottery!! At least that is what I hope for.

So to answer your question, whats in it for the Delta employees, An airline that should be able to compete with anyone in any area of the world as if we owned the turf. That should equate to job security and possibly lead to better pay and working conditions than would be available as a stand alone. especially if the other carriers band together.

I can only hope for the best for us all!!

 

[NYCDelta]

NYCDelta,

Just my 2 cents worth;

The AFA issues involve AFA(Union) members only !

Once thats resolved, should the US/DL "event" take place, DL f/a should be stapled to the bottom of the seniority list, IN THE ORDER THAT THEY JOIN AFA, which I'm quite sure will happen, because if a "union representative" issue arise's, the current AFA members(US + HP "+" union leaning DL f/a's would become the Majority.
NH/BB's

Actually, according to AFA Bylaws :2. Seniority integration with a non-AFA-CWA carrier shall, to the extent legally possible, be accomplished by compiling an integrated seniority list in the same manner as provided for seniority integration between flight attendants on AFA-CWA carriers.


See-I've done my research!

 

[NYCDelta]

Actually, according to AFA Bylaws :2. Seniority integration with a non-AFA-CWA carrier shall, to the extent legally possible, be accomplished by compiling an integrated seniority list in the same manner as provided for seniority integration between flight attendants on AFA-CWA carriers.

See-I've done my research!

Additionally, during a Q&A with our managers at DL, someone asked the following:

Q3: Union supporters are saying we need to vote in a union now so that Delta flight attendants will have a voice if a merger with US Airways occurs.

A3: That’s not true. You don’t give up your voice in a merger. In the unlikely event a merger with US Airways went through, here’s how it would work. The Delta flight attendant group is larger than the US Airways group. This means that the US Airways’ flight attendant union, the AFA, could not just come in and force the union or its contract on you. The AFA would have to ask the National Mediation Board (NMB), the federal agency that oversees representation elections in the airline industry, for an election. The combined Delta and US Airways flight attendant group would then vote to decide if they wanted any union representation at all. There would be no seniority integration until the representation issue was first resolved.

 

[BoeingBoy]

You're right, Jim. But, and I may be naive here, taking out the unknowns, and just looking at the knowns: wouldn't UAL or NWA be a better partner for US (or DL for that matter) than US with DL?

When you put that condition on it, and remembering that the knowns compromise only a very small corner of the picture (sorta like trying to describe the Louvre in detail after only peeking in the front door), here's my "it depends" which really won't answer your question.....

It depends on what each combination is expected to accomplish and what the benefit of each different combination is expected to be.

DL or US merging with NW should create a network with broader reach than any had separately, serving every continent except Australis and Antartica. That would be expected to produce some benefit (meaning improving the bottom line - profits).

DL and US merging broadens the network marginally, especially for DL. It would, however, combine competitors with loads of overlap in the eastern U.S. Merging should allow aligning capacity to better match demand, which should raise load factors and provide more revenue per flight (RASM goes up). A DL/US merger could also free some planes to allow adding service where neither carrier now has much presence - say across the Pacific. So there is a potential benefit to the DL/US merger (that bottom line again).

So Parker (or whoever) looks at the possibilities and decides which offers more potential benefits. All based on what may happen in each scenerio.

Notice all the "should's", "expected's", and "potential's" in there - that's all the unknowns that are pretty hard to ignore since any plan - merger or not, with who, etc - is based on expectated but not guaranteed results.

Of course, this is all my opinion only.....

Jim

 

[Travelpro72]

There would be no seniority integration until the representation issue was first resolved.
[/quote]
You are 100% correct. So, when AFA wanted to unionize how close was the vote to you guys/gals almost becoming AFA? Was it a majority yes or no vote? Curious here about that one.

 

[NYCDelta]

There would be no seniority integration until the representation issue was first resolved.

You are 100% correct. So, when AFA wanted to unionize how close was the vote to you guys/gals almost becoming AFA? Was it a majority yes or no vote? Curious here about that one.

I'm not really sure. If all that is needed in the merged carrier is the usual "50% + 1", I think they would probably get it. I'm sure there are enough flight attendants at DL who are "disillusioned" with management.

 

[US1YFARE]

I'm sure there are enough flight attendants at DL who are "disillusioned" with management.

Oh dear Lord, wait until they meet the folks in Tempe!

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

Additionally, during a Q&A with our managers at DL, someone asked the following:

Q3: Union supporters are saying we need to vote in a union now so that Delta flight attendants will have a voice if a merger with US Airways occurs.

A3: That’s not true. You don’t give up your voice in a merger. In the unlikely event a merger with US Airways went through, here’s how it would work. The Delta flight attendant group is larger than the US Airways group. This means that the US Airways’ flight attendant union, the AFA, could not just come in and force the union or its contract on you. The AFA would have to ask the National Mediation Board (NMB), the federal agency that oversees representation elections in the airline industry, for an election. The combined Delta and US Airways flight attendant group would then vote to decide if they wanted any union representation at all. There would be no seniority integration until the representation issue was first resolved.

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Well, If I interpet Answer #3 correctly, It "silently" says, that All the (combined) F/A's "COULD"(by majority vote) elect AFA to represent them.

If that happens, I would LOGICALLY guess, that current AFA members would be senior to the NEWER members, who have "elected" to join !

Also, for "$hits and Giggles', there is the ancient "Allegheny/Mohawk" language !!!


???

NH/BB's