Mechanic''s and UAL not talking ?

wts54

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Sep 16, 2002
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Mechanics give UAL cold shoulder

Labor concession talks between United Airlines and its mechanics are bogging down. Negotiators for the machinists union broke off face-to-face talks three weeks ago and there have been no bargaining sessions since.
We walked away because of some disagreements, says Thomas Reardon, assistant general chairman of the International Assn. of Machinists and a member of the negotiating committee. We''re not scheduled to go into talks.
 

N628AU

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Aug 22, 2002
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SOP for the IAM. Take it from one of your US bretheren, this is what will occur. The IAM and company will talk on and off. They will be very close to getting something done, but something like the color of the tablecloth in the negotiating room will cause the IAM to pick up their ball and go home. Some minor issues will be outstanding. The company will want to settle the differences, and try to talk again, but the IAM will say, okay, but this week all of our negotiating members have to attend a conference (read: golf outing). The clock will run out and the company files Chapter 11. Before seeking to abrogate the contract, the company will give a take or leave it proposal containing what they agreed on, plus what the company wants in regard to minor issues. Ratify it, or we will seek to abrogate your deal. This undoubtedly contains provisions that line the IAM pockets (board seat again, some absurd financial payout), at the expense of the membership. All along, the IAM never came to the membership and said, We need to cut $XXX million in costs, what do you want to keep, and what in the contract can you live without?

Any of this sound familiar? It is exactly what happened at US Airways. Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. My best wishes to my friends at UAL during this difficult time.
 

UAL777flyer

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Aug 20, 2002
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Why am I not surprised? These fools are posturing to save from being pushed off the property by AMFA. Do they even realize that it's now November 10th and we're probably a couple of weeks away from having to file for Ch.11. And that's also not withstanding that our chances of obtaining the ATSB loan guarantee are not the greatest in the world without all unions onboard with deals. Does the IAM honestly think that a bankruptcy judge is going to leave their contract as is? Let them keep deluding themselves. If UA is forced to file for Ch.11 and doesn't have an IAM agreement, you can bet the farm that they will seek to have the contract abrogated. And I hope they're successful. Then you will see MASSIVE outsourcing beyond current levels, as well as significant job losses and work rule changes. Once again, the IAM has chosen to be a roadblock in an airline's attempt to stabilize themselves. Now all we need are more quotes from Buffy the Airline Slayer.
 
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wts54

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Sep 16, 2002
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Why am I not surprised? These fools are posturing to save from being pushed off the property by AMFA. Do they even realize that it's now November 10th and we're probably a couple of weeks away from having to file for Ch.11. And that's also not withstanding that our chances of obtaining the ATSB loan guarantee are not the greatest in the world without all unions onboard with deals. Does the IAM honestly think that a bankruptcy judge is going to leave their contract as is? Let them keep deluding themselves. If UA is forced to file for Ch.11 and doesn't have an IAM agreement, you can bet the farm that they will seek to have the contract abrogated. And I hope they're successful. Then you will see MASSIVE outsourcing beyond current levels, as well as significant job losses and work rule changes. Once again, the IAM has chosen to be a roadblock in an airline's attempt to stabilize themselves. Now all we need are more quotes from Buffy the Airline Slayer.

Massive outsourcing is what they are going to do anyway.Closing all the bases
are what they intend on doing anyway.Taking R+D is what they already want to
do now,so why should people play ball with management?
 

gatemech

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Aug 24, 2002
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Posted by N628AU
All along, the IAM never came to the membership and said, We need to cut $XXX million in costs, what do you want to keep, and what in the contract can you live without?
______________________________________________________

If the IAM really cared about the membership they would quit fighting to keep AMFA out. If they are truly the better union then they can file down the road to represent us again. I doubt they would get in again.

I have never once seen a top official of the IAM come ask what we are willing to give up. I don't want any of them on the BOD because they only look out for their own interest. With the proper management team in place that recognizes the employees as an asset we won't need a seat on the BOD. Those guys are not smart enough to hire a person with brains to represent us on the BOD. Canale & Ford are just out of their league in a boardroom. They need to get off their ass and do some talking. Bring something to us to buy or reject. I believe it will be the IAM not its members that will destroy UAL.
 
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wts54

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Sep 16, 2002
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Let's not forget the ESOP stock fraud,and
how it looks like the company took our money
and now all of a sudden they are discovering
their fiduciary duty to the ESOP stock swindle
victims now that the stock is below $4.00.
Why did the IAM,ALPA,last but not least UAL
ESOP trustees just now are looking out for
us.I wonder what some sharp ERISA lawyers
would think about this.Also dont forget our
boardseats that wont be there when they get
finished looking out for all of us ESOP
stock holders.Lucky us just think what could
have happened to if they were not our friend.
 

atabuy

Senior
Oct 13, 2002
419
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For all the mechanics here who think jobs are out there, should just apply at different places over the next few weeks and see just what kind of money you can make.
I think you would be very surprised. I wouldn't delude myself, with a false sense, of what is available.

For those working at bases where some of their co-workers have been laid off, ask them, do they have jobs yet.

In the union envirorment, a mechanic is a mechanic. In the real world you better have some knowledge of the job you want to get into.

There are airplane mechanics all over who are looking for new work.
Do you really want to be one of them?
If you don't believe me ask the U people who are laid off. Find out what they are doing about finding work.

If you vote against concessions, you can forget about AMFA or any other union. There won't be one. Unless you vote in BK to take the cuts you could have before BK. The same way U did.
That will truely show the depth of your emotional folly.
Of course if you don't, the judge will throw out your contract.
When Ual comes out of BK you can get AMFA to start from scratch with a brand new contract.
Good luck to you then because rules will have already been dictated to you and there will not be a lot of room for bargaining.

Just an opinion here for those here who believe you have the upper hand. You will not win against the company. But it probably won't stop you from trying.
I guess all I can say is good luck.

For myself and I hope enough clear headed employees, I will vote for whatever is reccomended. I would rather try to make changes out of BK then in it. I already bought enough stock to compensate for any reductions in pay. If you think you might vote for whatevers neccessary to keep Ual out of BK, buy some too.
 

UnitedChicago

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Aug 27, 2002
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All:

Exactly my point of not making assumptions. No one should assume UAL has the loan locked up and that labor is all on-board.

There was a trib article today that quoted Carty from AA. He's very criticle of UAL's application. Of course he should be as he leads UAL's biggest rival. But...to a certain extent, this is all about PR as well.
 

Steiner

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Aug 21, 2002
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[blockquote]
----------------
On 11/10/2002 4:45:45 PM atabuy wrote:

For all the mechanics here who think jobs are out there, should just apply at different places over the next few weeks and see just what kind of money you can make.
I think you would be very surprised. I wouldn't delude myself, with a false sense, of what is available.

For those working at bases where some of their co-workers have been laid off, ask them, do they have jobs yet.

In the union envirorment, a mechanic is a mechanic. In the real world you better have some knowledge of the job you want to get into.

There are airplane mechanics all over who are looking for new work.
Do you really want to be one of them?
If you don't believe me ask the U people who are laid off. Find out what they are doing about finding work.

If you vote against concessions, you can forget about AMFA or any other union. There won't be one. Unless you vote in BK to take the cuts you could have before BK. The same way U did.
That will truely show the depth of your emotional folly.
Of course if you don't, the judge will throw out your contract.
When Ual comes out of BK you can get AMFA to start from scratch with a brand new contract.
Good luck to you then because rules will have already been dictated to you and there will not be a lot of room for bargaining.

Just an opinion here for those here who believe you have the upper hand. You will not win against the company. But it probably won't stop you from trying.
I guess all I can say is good luck.

For myself and I hope enough clear headed employees, I will vote for whatever is reccomended. I would rather try to make changes out of BK then in it. I already bought enough stock to compensate for any reductions in pay. If you think you might vote for whatevers neccessary to keep Ual out of BK, buy some too.
----------------
[/blockquote]

atabuy, many of us have seen the talented mechanics who have been laid off since Sept 11 get good jobs. It just depends on if the individuals have any job skills beyond punching the timeclock. Some of these talented folks will chose never to come back to the airline circus again.

Through all of this, what makes anyone think that the mechanics at UAL have any control over what the IAM does? Have we all forgotten about the confused mechanics' vote at US Airways?
 

oldpilot

Newbie
Aug 22, 2002
14
0
How this? The IAM figures eventually they will lose the Mechs to AMFA. Therefore BK is a good option since the company will want to sell off most/all of the heavy maintenance. Boeing wants to buy that portion of UAL and Boeing mechs are represented by IAM. So... bring on BK, allow Boeing to buy the heavy maint. and the IAM retains most of the mechs and their dues money. they lose the few remaining at UAL to AMFA instead of the whole bunch.

Just a thought
 

Tim Thorpe

Member
Aug 20, 2002
53
0
[blockquote]
----------------
On 11/10/2002 8:00:21 PM oldpilot wrote:

How this? The IAM figures eventually they will lose the Mechs to AMFA. Therefore BK is a good option since the company will want to sell off most/all of the heavy maintenance. Boeing wants to buy that portion of UAL and Boeing mechs are represented by IAM. So... bring on BK, allow Boeing to buy the heavy maint. and the IAM retains most of the mechs and their dues money. they lose the few remaining at UAL to AMFA instead of the whole bunch.

Just a thought
----------------
[/blockquote]
According to AMFA organizers here in IND the AMFA is 600 to 800 cards short and cannot organize SFO. You can all forget about the AMFA this time around. They cannot pull it off on a good day and this isn't a good day. Maybe the IAM is just doing what its members want. Hardball negotiations are all we know. And lots of people are in no mood for any kind of paycuts, the future be ****ed. With all of the secrecy that is normally involved in IAM procedings who is to say what they are doing beind closed doors. Lets all flap our arms, run in circles and repeat the sky is falling, the sky is falling.
 

UAL777flyer

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
730
0
Sorry, kscabpilot, I never said UA can get by without mechanics. But if you think they can't find a way to significantly eliminate more mechanic jobs and still run their operation, you're nuts. Have you compared the number of mechanics at Delta to the number at UA lately? Yes, UA is outsourcing now. But in bankruptcy, it'll get worse. They'll seek to toss out your contract. Will they be successful? I don't think it's a slam dunk, but I do think they'd be successful. Than, guess what happens? Massive layoffs, work rule changes, benefit reductions, paycuts, etc., etc. You guys want to hold onto your precious R & D all the way to Ch.11? Go ahead. It's time to come in from the cold of the regulated era and recognize that your contract, which is laden with inefficient and costly work rules and staffing requirements, no longer works in this environment. Posture all you want. You're going to lose either way. The only question is, which way do you lose biggest? Bankruptcy. Especially if investors like Marvin Davis or TPG get their paws on UA.

P.S. kscabpilot, great call on noticing I was posting on my day off. I'm impressed. I guess my previous assumptions of you being a mental midget were all wrong!
 
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wts54

Senior
Sep 16, 2002
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UAL777flyer,
How many mechanics can UAL cut and still run this airline? How many mechanics are working at UAL,DELTA,AMERICAN ? Have you sat down and analyzed
those airlines and determined how their mechanics are utilized and compared them to UAL ? Have you figured in any attrition rate especially due to retirements at UAL.How many mechanics are considered extra at UAL because
mechs do the pushbacks?