There are always going to be similarities between passenger carriers and cargo/freight carriers. But the nature of their business models/operations makes them distinct. And the bottom line is that a company can only afford what it can afford. If you're company is bleeding billions of dollars each year, that points to a significant problem when you have the highest CASM in the industry. It is simply not an equal comparison in terms of determining wages.
Mechanics Wages
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KCFlyer
Veteran
Busdriver - ponder this...If not for deragulation and the low fare competition that it wrought, would there have even been a spot on the UAL pilot roster for yourself, or would UAL currently be considerably smaller than it is now?
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On 9/17/2002 12:37:12 PM will fix for food wrote:
I see your point. It would be very difficult, almost imossible, for anyone to start a new airline. HMMM...eliminate the competition before they even start...good idea. Now if we can get the larger airlines to actually BE more financially stabile,we will be in good shape.
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Yes, except for the VERY well financed operations like JetBlu. However it would have required them to pay the prevailing rate from the beginning. there would stilll be some low fare outfits that had the industries rejects, who have absolutely no hope of ever getting hired by a major. For pilots it would be the guys with two or three DUIs, failed check rides, violations ect.
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On 9/17/2002 12:37:12 PM will fix for food wrote:
I see your point. It would be very difficult, almost imossible, for anyone to start a new airline. HMMM...eliminate the competition before they even start...good idea. Now if we can get the larger airlines to actually BE more financially stabile,we will be in good shape.
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Yes, except for the VERY well financed operations like JetBlu. However it would have required them to pay the prevailing rate from the beginning. there would stilll be some low fare outfits that had the industries rejects, who have absolutely no hope of ever getting hired by a major. For pilots it would be the guys with two or three DUIs, failed check rides, violations ect.
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On 9/16/2002 7:08:02 AM Bob Owens wrote:
Magsua;
So in other words FED Ex pilots get paid less but they have the opportunity to make it up in OT. The point I was trying to make is that UAL777Flyer was implying that Freight pays better because its the business. If that was the case then their pilots should receive an hourly wage that is 20% higher also.
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Actually, If you consider the actual hour rate at Fed Ex and UPS, the pilots there can make considerably more. If your route consists of only 2 hours of flying each night (out and back) and you are paid for 5 hours due to duty and trip rigs, your actual hour rate goes up big time. The net effect would be a Fed Ex guy flying overtime and logging a total of 60 actual hours, but over 80 credit time in a month, while a mainline pilot flies 75 hour and gets paid 75 hours. as for it being easy to start a cargo operation, it's easy to start a bulk cargo or contract cargo company, starting another UPS or Fed EX with the infrastucture, would be next to impossible. Imagine how much revenue is in a container of overnight delivery mail.
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On 9/16/2002 7:08:02 AM Bob Owens wrote:
Magsua;
So in other words FED Ex pilots get paid less but they have the opportunity to make it up in OT. The point I was trying to make is that UAL777Flyer was implying that Freight pays better because its the business. If that was the case then their pilots should receive an hourly wage that is 20% higher also.
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Actually, If you consider the actual hour rate at Fed Ex and UPS, the pilots there can make considerably more. If your route consists of only 2 hours of flying each night (out and back) and you are paid for 5 hours due to duty and trip rigs, your actual hour rate goes up big time. The net effect would be a Fed Ex guy flying overtime and logging a total of 60 actual hours, but over 80 credit time in a month, while a mainline pilot flies 75 hour and gets paid 75 hours. as for it being easy to start a cargo operation, it's easy to start a bulk cargo or contract cargo company, starting another UPS or Fed EX with the infrastucture, would be next to impossible. Imagine how much revenue is in a container of overnight delivery mail.
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On 9/17/2002 2:15:06 PM KCFlyer wrote:
Busdriver - ponder this...If not for deragulation and the low fare competition that it wrought, would there have even been a spot on the UAL pilot roster for yourself, or would UAL currently be considerably smaller than it is now?
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Absolutely. ALL the low fare airlines combined account for about 24% of the market. The low fares also typically fly more hours per pilot (and other employee for that matter). If not for the low fares, while true that there may not be quite aws much capacity, the capacity would be more than made up for by the lack of efficiency.
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On 9/17/2002 2:15:06 PM KCFlyer wrote:
Busdriver - ponder this...If not for deragulation and the low fare competition that it wrought, would there have even been a spot on the UAL pilot roster for yourself, or would UAL currently be considerably smaller than it is now?
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Absolutely. ALL the low fare airlines combined account for about 24% of the market. The low fares also typically fly more hours per pilot (and other employee for that matter). If not for the low fares, while true that there may not be quite aws much capacity, the capacity would be more than made up for by the lack of efficiency.
oldiebutgoody
Veteran
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Hmm...THAT'S THE POINT! wouldn't those Vanguard employees prob rather work for a larger more financially stabile airline? The point would be to prevent "bargain basement" "corner cutting" airlines from ever starting.
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Maybe, but the little orange shorts ride up a little ( I hear!).
Hmm...THAT'S THE POINT! wouldn't those Vanguard employees prob rather work for a larger more financially stabile airline? The point would be to prevent "bargain basement" "corner cutting" airlines from ever starting.
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Maybe, but the little orange shorts ride up a little ( I hear!).
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On 9/16/2002 2:55:58 PM kcabpilot wrote:
The "B" scale payrates came about through the same process as the ESOP and the current concession package that is about to be foisted upon us; that is through threats of massive layoffs, bankruptcy or liquidation. Lowering the pay of new hires may have seemed like a more palatable choice back then but it served to further cement workers into their current positions and allows the company to treat them with far less respect than they would get away with if they were free to jump ship and go to the best offer.
If you take a deeper and longer look at the situation you'll see that this sort of thing isn't confined to just the airline industry. Big corporations by nature have very little concern for the welfare of those hapless souls who do the LABOR (is that a dirty word?). It's all about the bottom line - the profits - and the expedient siphoning off and transfer of those profits to the chosen few.
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Nice post. But also remember that the union brothers agreed to the B scale. Thanks union brothers! When I was at TWA and an ambulance showed up to take some old union brother (who also singned up for overtime while us younger guys were getting laid off) we said good! just moved up in seniority!
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On 9/16/2002 2:55:58 PM kcabpilot wrote:
The "B" scale payrates came about through the same process as the ESOP and the current concession package that is about to be foisted upon us; that is through threats of massive layoffs, bankruptcy or liquidation. Lowering the pay of new hires may have seemed like a more palatable choice back then but it served to further cement workers into their current positions and allows the company to treat them with far less respect than they would get away with if they were free to jump ship and go to the best offer.
If you take a deeper and longer look at the situation you'll see that this sort of thing isn't confined to just the airline industry. Big corporations by nature have very little concern for the welfare of those hapless souls who do the LABOR (is that a dirty word?). It's all about the bottom line - the profits - and the expedient siphoning off and transfer of those profits to the chosen few.
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Nice post. But also remember that the union brothers agreed to the B scale. Thanks union brothers! When I was at TWA and an ambulance showed up to take some old union brother (who also singned up for overtime while us younger guys were getting laid off) we said good! just moved up in seniority!
