libertybell
Senior
- Jan 5, 2003
- 320
- 9
more IAM fleet service committeemen recommending a ''no'' vote
- Thread starter autofixer
- Start date
wings396
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 3,672
- 1,122
Very well stated Red One. Chip fails to see that we will be voting ourselves either out of a job, or into a $13 an hour one. I agree that the $13 an hour jobs can be found all over the place in my location. And the worse part is that if we stay for the $13, we can't even collect the unemployment benefits as a partial. Does the company really think that anyone who stays and takes another $6 cut will do much if anything at all to make the operation run smooth. The IAM rep was at our location and said the $13 was an average of the other express operators, of corse he is from a hub and will still get his $19. We asked him if he or his coworkers would work for $13 and he looked baffled. GIVE US THE CO RATE OF $16.75, AND WE WILL VOTE FOR THE NEW DEAL IN A SECOND.WITHOUT IT FORGET ABOUT IT.
Hey CHip...I beleive you (ALPA) got about 20% in the new company. You will be the second largest share holder next to RSA. When someone "gives up" something it implies they there is nothing in return. As usual ALPA never really "gives up" anything they just exchange it for soemthing else...like 20% of the company....boo hoo.
That 20% could make you guys very ritch.
That 20% could make you guys very ritch.
Us10,
All groups are not being treated equally. Fleet and CSA's are once again being asked or told rather to take it for the other groups. Look at pilots getting 20% of company for giving up last 2 yrs raises. Fleet will be taking 45% wage and benefits reductions for MDA classification. This will happen in both class 1 and 2 stations. thats the last 15 years or more of raises!
THIS IS UNREASONABLE!
All groups are not being treated equally. Fleet and CSA's are once again being asked or told rather to take it for the other groups. Look at pilots getting 20% of company for giving up last 2 yrs raises. Fleet will be taking 45% wage and benefits reductions for MDA classification. This will happen in both class 1 and 2 stations. thats the last 15 years or more of raises!
THIS IS UNREASONABLE!
[blockquote]
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On 1/7/2003 6:15:41 PM binboy wrote:
US10 wrote:
"Your wishfull thinking won't make the problems go away.Look I know this is difficult to confront but instead of facing the realty of our situation ,you've chosen to deny the true dangers of the moment. That's okay if it brings you a sense of peace.However, the risk I see is others may actually believe you and your flawed logic.
It seems to me that all you're saying is tha F/S is so unimportant and insignificant that they won't shut down over little ole us.It would seem to me if your so unnecessary you should be the last group to vote no.
Finally , If your group votes no are the rest of the employees supposed to make up the difference? My understanding is all agreements are subject to all other groups ratifying."
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Wishful thinking happens to be on your part US10 the realty
of the situation is that this company wants not just blood from the workers it wants the stone it came from as well. This modification is based on nothing but corporate greed that they will exploit from the workers with future profits they will be making. To allow this company to have the language that is in this modification is career suicide. You mention flawed logic from Tim's post but what you fail to mention is if you are a fleet service worker yourself? Have you read the modifications an seen how bad it is? Have you seen the language that will end in job losses for mainline workers?
After reading Tims post i see no flaws in his logic with the analysis of the information he quoted seems very sound.
So US 10 if you honestly believe in Doc Bonnerand threats I have beach front property for sale in Nevada just waitng for you!
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[/blockquote]
Binboy
I'm not interested in buying your Nevada property but I do buy the fact that Bronner is dead serious. How many other investors stepped up to the plate during the BK bidding process?That's right zero , Binboy that should tell you something. I see Bronner as a confident sometimes cocky investor but when others looked and didn't bid , I don't know about you but I would start to squirm.Remember this isn't his money he answeres to the state pensioners of Alabama.I feel if he is pushed out of his comfort zone he will do the smart thing and bail.The company burned through another 85 million dollars in November. Binboy , I don't share the view this investor will stay if things get ugly with labor.
Look beyond your group and you will see that all groups are sacrificing to save this company .All jobs won't be saved.This is the reality of a failed company in BK.
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On 1/7/2003 6:15:41 PM binboy wrote:
US10 wrote:
"Your wishfull thinking won't make the problems go away.Look I know this is difficult to confront but instead of facing the realty of our situation ,you've chosen to deny the true dangers of the moment. That's okay if it brings you a sense of peace.However, the risk I see is others may actually believe you and your flawed logic.
It seems to me that all you're saying is tha F/S is so unimportant and insignificant that they won't shut down over little ole us.It would seem to me if your so unnecessary you should be the last group to vote no.
Finally , If your group votes no are the rest of the employees supposed to make up the difference? My understanding is all agreements are subject to all other groups ratifying."
------------------------------------------------------------
Wishful thinking happens to be on your part US10 the realty
of the situation is that this company wants not just blood from the workers it wants the stone it came from as well. This modification is based on nothing but corporate greed that they will exploit from the workers with future profits they will be making. To allow this company to have the language that is in this modification is career suicide. You mention flawed logic from Tim's post but what you fail to mention is if you are a fleet service worker yourself? Have you read the modifications an seen how bad it is? Have you seen the language that will end in job losses for mainline workers?
After reading Tims post i see no flaws in his logic with the analysis of the information he quoted seems very sound.
So US 10 if you honestly believe in Doc Bonnerand threats I have beach front property for sale in Nevada just waitng for you!
----------------
[/blockquote]
Binboy
I'm not interested in buying your Nevada property but I do buy the fact that Bronner is dead serious. How many other investors stepped up to the plate during the BK bidding process?That's right zero , Binboy that should tell you something. I see Bronner as a confident sometimes cocky investor but when others looked and didn't bid , I don't know about you but I would start to squirm.Remember this isn't his money he answeres to the state pensioners of Alabama.I feel if he is pushed out of his comfort zone he will do the smart thing and bail.The company burned through another 85 million dollars in November. Binboy , I don't share the view this investor will stay if things get ugly with labor.
Look beyond your group and you will see that all groups are sacrificing to save this company .All jobs won't be saved.This is the reality of a failed company in BK.
Tim Nelson
Veteran
more questions answered
1. Will mainline employees be able to carry their classification seniority with them to MDA and Express?
Even though "pay date seniority" carries over, don't assume your classification seniority will carry over. I am a local Chairman and even I don't know exactly how to answer this since this has not been defined for me yet. Good question.
2. My union person came and said that if my station goes Express I am guaranteed a full-time job at the express carrier?
That's not true at all, I hope you heard your union rep incorrectly.
Further, recent express classification postings (December 23rd posting on CS briefing company teletype) only had Part-time CWA openings at the new express station of STL.
If this fleet service modification passes then it should naturally follow that the STL ramp would be in line for some part-time openings also. My guess is 2 hour shifts twice a day, and benefits to match. As you can see this is just not a viable option.
3. IAM signed a new agreement on January 6th that will be included on what you will be voting on, on Friday.
I am getting info on it but the text of it appears to be yet another big concession to our pension, basing our pension contribution rate on our hourly rate instead of top out rate. This might screw the Express classification even more since their pension is based on 50% of ours.
On the face of it, it appears "topped out" employees at mainline shouldn't be affected adversely though. I will get more info on this soon.
gotta go but I will be back.
Tim Nelson
IAM 1487 Local Chairman
215-440-6392
1. Will mainline employees be able to carry their classification seniority with them to MDA and Express?
Even though "pay date seniority" carries over, don't assume your classification seniority will carry over. I am a local Chairman and even I don't know exactly how to answer this since this has not been defined for me yet. Good question.
2. My union person came and said that if my station goes Express I am guaranteed a full-time job at the express carrier?
That's not true at all, I hope you heard your union rep incorrectly.
Further, recent express classification postings (December 23rd posting on CS briefing company teletype) only had Part-time CWA openings at the new express station of STL.
If this fleet service modification passes then it should naturally follow that the STL ramp would be in line for some part-time openings also. My guess is 2 hour shifts twice a day, and benefits to match. As you can see this is just not a viable option.
3. IAM signed a new agreement on January 6th that will be included on what you will be voting on, on Friday.
I am getting info on it but the text of it appears to be yet another big concession to our pension, basing our pension contribution rate on our hourly rate instead of top out rate. This might screw the Express classification even more since their pension is based on 50% of ours.
On the face of it, it appears "topped out" employees at mainline shouldn't be affected adversely though. I will get more info on this soon.
gotta go but I will be back.
Tim Nelson
IAM 1487 Local Chairman
215-440-6392
[blockquote]
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On 1/6/2003 4:07:44 PM Lake Central wrote:
Chip, are you saying that U can ask the Judge to throw the contracts out, if any of the TA's are not approved?
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[/blockquote]
Lake I read most of the posts in this thread and it didn’t appear that anyone answered your question.
Bill Freiberger was just here (LAX) and to my understanding the answer to your question is yes. U can still go to the BK Judge and ask him to abrogate any T/A that failed to pass.
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On 1/6/2003 4:07:44 PM Lake Central wrote:
Chip, are you saying that U can ask the Judge to throw the contracts out, if any of the TA's are not approved?
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[/blockquote]
Lake I read most of the posts in this thread and it didn’t appear that anyone answered your question.
Bill Freiberger was just here (LAX) and to my understanding the answer to your question is yes. U can still go to the BK Judge and ask him to abrogate any T/A that failed to pass.
[blockquote]
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On 1/8/2003 12:55:40 PM tug_slug wrote:
[blockquote]
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tug slug said:
I read most of the posts in this thread and it didn’t appear that anyone answered your question.
Bill Freiberger was just here (LAX) and to my understanding the answer to your question is yes. U can still go to the BK Judge and ask him to abrogate any T/A that failed to pass.
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[/blockquote]
tugslug, we have been told that the 1113 letter in our contract where Dave agreed to not seek to throw our contract out is secure. So secure that what you are suggesting has never happened. This is America and management is free to ask for anything. And they can ask if you vote yes or no so nothing gained. And the contract sucks so bad anyway that at this point who cares.
Nelson, thanks for your time standing up against all this filth
check your messages and call me.
pit is 95% no.
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On 1/8/2003 12:55:40 PM tug_slug wrote:
[blockquote]
----------------
tug slug said:
I read most of the posts in this thread and it didn’t appear that anyone answered your question.
Bill Freiberger was just here (LAX) and to my understanding the answer to your question is yes. U can still go to the BK Judge and ask him to abrogate any T/A that failed to pass.
----------------
[/blockquote]
tugslug, we have been told that the 1113 letter in our contract where Dave agreed to not seek to throw our contract out is secure. So secure that what you are suggesting has never happened. This is America and management is free to ask for anything. And they can ask if you vote yes or no so nothing gained. And the contract sucks so bad anyway that at this point who cares.
Nelson, thanks for your time standing up against all this filth
check your messages and call me.
pit is 95% no.
Steelersrule, if your comments are accurate than US Airways would not qualify for the loan guarantee and RSA has said they will pull their DIP financing. If this occurs, the IAM could be the final nail in the coffin, just like at Eastern Air Lines, and the company could liquidate.[BR][BR]The ATSB, RSA, GECAS, and other financiers are not bluffing, especially with the certain revenue deterioration that will now occur due to the Air Midwest accident.[BR][BR]Can you tell me how you will benefit when the company liquidates? Moreover, how will the furloughees benefit when their severance pay is terminated?[BR][BR]Chip[BR][BR] [BR]
And Chip I hammered Siegel yesterday in CLT and he could or would not answer the questions and many others did the same, if you dont believe me go ask Mr Chiames, he even came over to speak with me, the interesting thing is I asked Siegel who was in charge, him or Bronner and I got no answer.[BR][BR]So once again, stop telling us how to vote.
ClueByFour
Veteran
[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/8/2003 3:02:07 PM steelersrule wrote:
[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE]pit is 95% no.
[P][/P]
[P align=left]--------------[BR][BR][BR]They can join their USW forefathers on the unemployment line with a PBGC minimum pension. If they are lucky.[/P][/BLOCKQUOTE][/BLOCKQUOTE]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/8/2003 3:02:07 PM steelersrule wrote:
[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE]pit is 95% no.
[P][/P]
[P align=left]--------------[BR][BR][BR]They can join their USW forefathers on the unemployment line with a PBGC minimum pension. If they are lucky.[/P][/BLOCKQUOTE][/BLOCKQUOTE]
Tug:
Tug said: Bill Freiberger was just here (LAX) and to my understanding the answer to your question is yes. U can still go to the BK Judge and ask him to abrogate any T/A that failed to pass.
Chip comments: Tug, that's my understanding as well. In fact, the company could even seek deeper cuts and like before seek damages from those unions who fail to ratify their TA’s. Friday's UAL hearing S.1113 hearing will set a precedent for airline employees working for a bankrupt company. In addition, Judge Mitchell today ruled today in favor of the company and its claim against EDS (Sabre). US Airways appears to now be able to abandon the $200 million per year IT contract that has a 25-year term. US Airways accused EDS of not providing "most favored customer" status.
If the judge would rule in favor of US Airways against EDS, considering the union action could force a liquidation, how do you think the court would rule against the IAM if Bill Freiberger is correct in his thoughts?
Chip
Tug said: Bill Freiberger was just here (LAX) and to my understanding the answer to your question is yes. U can still go to the BK Judge and ask him to abrogate any T/A that failed to pass.
Chip comments: Tug, that's my understanding as well. In fact, the company could even seek deeper cuts and like before seek damages from those unions who fail to ratify their TA’s. Friday's UAL hearing S.1113 hearing will set a precedent for airline employees working for a bankrupt company. In addition, Judge Mitchell today ruled today in favor of the company and its claim against EDS (Sabre). US Airways appears to now be able to abandon the $200 million per year IT contract that has a 25-year term. US Airways accused EDS of not providing "most favored customer" status.
If the judge would rule in favor of US Airways against EDS, considering the union action could force a liquidation, how do you think the court would rule against the IAM if Bill Freiberger is correct in his thoughts?
Chip
Chip get your facts straight and stop blaming the IAM for Eastern's demise, Lorenzo was raping EA to benefit CO and all the unionized employees struck Eastern, the federal courts took control of Eastern away from Lorenzo and the DOT/DOJ banned him from the industry. So post all the facts, not bits and pieces.
