Must read UA Story

Whatever SWA is doing...it works. We are losing the battles and the war. They do not endure layoffs or paycuts. I have a friend that just left UAL for SWA last year and he is ecstatic...not to mention with the new contract he is on his way to 37$/hr. UPS,FEDEX,AA,NWA,DAL,SWA, seem to all be able to pay their mechanics....but I have the most experience SAVING and airline though...woooohooo
 
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On 9/8/2002 3:59:02 PM mastermechanic wrote:

Whatever SWA is doing...it works. We are losing the battles and the war. They do not endure layoffs or paycuts. I have a friend that just left UAL for SWA last year and he is ecstatic...not to mention with the new contract he is on his way to 37$/hr. UPS,FEDEX,AA,NWA,DAL,SWA, seem to all be able to pay their mechanics....but I have the most experience SAVING and airline though...woooohooo
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No Reciept and Dispatch, Tramco doing ALL heavy MX. It's amazing how much you can pay an individual employee when you have half as many. If you're willing to give up both (R&D, Hvy MX), I'm sure the company would be willing to work with you.
 
KCFlyer you better worry if your job is in the current administration
1.gif'] Texans 19 Cowboys 10
 
Taipan - thanks for your concern, but my division isn't affected by who sits in the oval office. Got the job when Clinton was prez, kept the job after the election - will keep the job after the next election.
 
It's amazing-- UAL pilots have the same mentality as USAIR pilots- It's everyone else's fault BUT the Pilots. I like the article that began this thread so I will copy it on to the US page. Should prove quite intresting. Especially the part about putting the wolf in charge of the chicken coup. And tell me, just why does a pilot, any pilot need to make a quarter of a million dollars or more??????? The president of our country makes about that and personally I find his job a bit harder than flying an airplane. It's that Pilot PR game they got going I suspect- Got the world convinced a stuffed shirt, hats and shades are worth it I guess.

To the UAL non Pilot groups, good luck in your talks on concessions. The wolves are in the house- you will need it.
 
I just compared fares for IAD-OAK (UA) and BWI-OAK (WN) for flights departing 9/10 and returning 9/11; UA wanted $516.50 RT for the non-stops while WN wanted $522.50 for its one-stops. The difference is essentially the federal segment tax -- hypothetically you'd simply choose the airport which is more convenient to you.

I also priced MDW/ORD-OAK, departing 9/12 and returning 9/15 (so at least there would be that all-important Saturday night stay). UA wanted $743.50 RT for a connection through LAX in both directions; WN wanted $415.00 RT for a non-stop flight in both directions. Hmmm, I wonder who's providing more value to its passengers there.

Or how about BWI-MDW vs. IAD-ORD departing 9/10 and returning the next day. $518 on UA for a round-trip with no food (though they kindly offered alternate fares of $1269.20 and $1125.82), or $286.50 for a round-trip on WN with no food.

The moral is that you've gotta shop around if you're an airline passenger. (And the passengers really are, that's why revenues are so weak.)

Now, the ATSB loan guarantees were not set up as outright grants to failing carriers. One of the three conditions of a loan guarantee is that the intended obligation is prudently incurred. If the ATSB determines that the airline's business plan does not permit them to repay the loans within the specified time period, the obligation is not prudently incurred, and the ATSB must reject the loan guarantee application. (And in the case of Vanguard & National, one could argue that approving a loan guarantee was not a necessary part of maintaining a safe, efficient, and viable commercial aviation system in the United States.

It's lovely that only some of UAL's top pay rates went up 28% (incidentally, the rates which also raise pension expenses by a similar amount). But when you couple the wage rates extracted by ALPA with the rates extorted by the IAM, you've pretty much wiped out most of UAL's profit margins even during the fat years. History shows you can't run an airline with only the fat years in mind, since air transportation is generally disproportionally affected by recessions. And while the increase may have only been 3.5% on an annualized basis, it was more than the cumulative increase in the CPI over the same period. Moreover, it's not like the pilots suffered with no pay increases year after year; they received step increases based on years of service and aircraft size (and captain vs. FO). If you had reached the point where your annual pay wasn't increasing, you were still doing pretty darned well.

United has reached the point where it simply cannot make money (or avoid losing large sums of it) given its costs and the current revenue environment. Growth to mainline's previous size isn't an option in the short-to-medium term since demand simply isn't there -- unless you practically give the seats away. The company can't afford to continue to fly money-losing aircraft.

One thing is certain, though -- if labor can't get over its resentment of management and whatever wrongs (perceived or real) were done in the past, UAL will join U in bankruptcy and may very well be on its way to joining Eastern, Pan Am, and Braniff.

Oh, and by the way, at least one airline has always planned for the worst-case scenarios -- that would be Southwest.
 
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On 9/9/2002 9:52:28 PM Oliver Twist wrote:

And tell me, just why does a pilot, any pilot need to make a quarter of a million dollars or more??????? -------------
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Most pilots do not make that much...not by a longshot. Unfortunetly the news media always quotes the extreme upper scale.

However if you are interested in becoming a pilot and doing their easy job here are some tips.

1. If you do not have a college degree, spend 4 years and get one.
2. Then spend another 2 years training 4 to 5 days a week to aquire all the required ratings. Private, Instrument, Commercial, Multiengine, Multi- commercial, Certified flight instructor, Certified instrument instructor, Multi-engine instructor, and Airline Transport Pilot.
3. Make sure you can obtain an FAA Medical. Due at least once a year,(every six months for Captian) Diabetes, high blood pressure, kidney stones, gall bladder problems, heart palipatations...etc can all invalidate your medical, and end a career.
4. Fly as a flight instructor for 2 to 3 years for on average about $15000 a year.
5. Fly as a night freight pilot for another 2 to 3 years in horribly maintained light twins in all weather to get your multi time up. About $18000 a year.
6. If you manage to live through freight flying (I know 4 that did not.) Get a job with a commuter for another 3 to 4 years. F/O about $20000 a year, Capt. about $32000 a year.
5. After spending about 10 years paying your dues you might be lucky enough to get hired with a major for about $36000 a year starting pay. After 20 or so years with that major (Assuming a good market) you may make that $250,000 your last year or so.

Also make sure your family is behind you on this, since you will probably move them 10 to 15 times all over the country to fulfill this goal

Most intelligent people can become a pilot, few are willing to sacrifice the time and effort required to make it happen.

Any airline employee with the exception of Pilots Mechanics, and dispatchers, can be hired directly off the street and do their job without ever having seen an airplane before their first day. This is why some groups get paid better than others.

On my personal feelings, I think that the mechanics should be paid much better than they are. I do not want a bad or disgruntled mechanic anymore than the passengers want a bad pilot. On the other hand, $60000 aircraft cleaners have got to go. (You know the ones that pick up the old newspapers) Since I am Laid-off anybody know how you get that gig?
 
O.K. so you missed my whole point.

Eventually, if you have pee-poor paid pilots and machanics you will have pee-poor pilots and mechanics.

Pee-poor pilots and mechanics will result in lots of smoking holes in the ground.

But, we are a nation of gamblers, so pay that $29 fare for your seat and roll the dice!!
 
Ok, if we have nothing better to contribute to this thread than the tried and true pilots make too much money debate, than we'll just close it down. Let's try to cover some new ground or insight, please.
 
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On 9/10/2002 11:02:17 AM ONTHESTREET wrote:

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On 9/9/2002 9:52:28 PM Oliver Twist wrote:

And tell me, just why does a pilot, any pilot need to make a quarter of a million dollars or more??????? -------------
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Most pilots do not make that much...not by a longshot. Unfortunetly the news media always quotes the extreme upper scale.

Response- I do not think they all do, however, i suspect the average salary is well over $150-180,000-- why do you need even that much??
Still too close to the most powerful man on nearth for my taste. Oh and you can bet your bottom if that 265K was only the last year, then the years prior to that were very close. You can't use that argument.


However if you are interested in becoming a pilot and doing their easy job here are some tips.


Response- NEVER said it was easy, just not the all powerful and all mysterious you claim it to be.

1. If you do not have a college degree, spend 4 years and get one.
Response- I got one.

2. Then spend another 2 years training 4 to 5 days a week to aquire all the required ratings. Private, Instrument, Commercial, Multiengine, Multi- commercial, Certified flight instructor, Certified instrument instructor, Multi-engine instructor, and Airline Transport Pilot.

Response- Your choice to do that- no one forced you to do it--after all you were shooting for that 265K yourself.

3. Make sure you can obtain an FAA Medical. Due at least once a year,(every six months for Captian) Diabetes, high blood pressure, kidney stones, gall bladder problems, heart palipatations...etc can all invalidate your medical, and end a career.

Response- any of those conditions can end MOST careers-

4. Fly as a flight instructor for 2 to 3 years for on average about $15000 a year.

Response- Try part time customer service at 8-9/hr.

5. Fly as a night freight pilot for another 2 to 3 years in horribly maintained light twins in all weather to get your multi time up. About $18000 a year.

Response- You seem to forget, your goal is 265K and you dont mind it so you do it.

6. If you manage to live through freight flying (I know 4 that did not.) Get a job with a commuter for another 3 to 4 years. F/O about $20000 a year, Capt. about $32000 a year.

Response- AT upgrade to Full time--NO RAISE

5. After spending about 10 years "paying your dues" you might be lucky enough to get hired with a major for about $36000 a year starting pay. After 20 or so years with that major (Assuming a good market) you may make that $250,000 your last year or so.

Response- after 20 years of passenger dribble and pilot arrogance-- maxed out at 20-25/hr (gotta subsidize that 265K your shooting for)

Also make sure your family is behind you on this, since you will probably move them 10 to 15 times all over the country to fulfill this goal.

Response- Crisscrossed the US more times than I care to remember w/o getting any allowance to move..

Most intelligent people can become a pilot, few are willing to sacrifice the time and effort required to make it happen.

Response- Your right, you can't be an idiot to be a pilot, but you surely can whim and cry poor with the best of them- You just keep right on thinking the Skilled folks don't need the little ones.


Any airline employee with the exception of Pilots Mechanics, and dispatchers, can be hired directly off the street and do their job without ever having seen an airplane before their first day. This is why some groups get paid better than others.

Response- OMG the arrogance of it all! How do you guys/girls get your heads through the doorway?? Listening to your ideas, go to Burge King, ask for anything different than normal and see what happens. THAT is what you will be dealing with if things continue the way they are to pay your ridiculous salaries. Kmart help. Just try to get anything doen in such a place thats even remotely different. Heck, most can't even add without their computer screen and can't even tell when they rung up something wrong. thats 9.50 sir. 9.50??? for a burger fries and a coke?? u sure about that?? yes screen says so. Think it dose not happen?? your kidding yorselves if you think YOU are the only ones who deserve to make a decent living.

On my personal feelings, I think that the mechanics should be paid much better than they are. I do not want a bad or disgruntled mechanic anymore than the passengers want a bad pilot. On the other hand, $60000 aircraft cleaners have got to go. (You know the ones that pick up the old newspapers) Since I am Laid-off anybody know how you get that gig?

Response - join the IAM.
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O.K so you missed my whole point.

Eventually, if you have poorly paid pilots and mechanics you will have poor pilots and mechanics.

Poor pilots and mechanics will result in lots of smoking holes in the ground.

But we are a nation of gamblers, so go ahead and pay that $29 fare and roll the dice!!
 
Also for the record. I have NEVER said that anyone should not be able to make a decent living. Other than I think that $60000 is a bit much to pick up newspaper. (I know thats Top of scale) I have never stated that res. or ramp or any other employee group should have to take a pay cut.

Do I think that those groups should make the same as a pilot or mechanic? No. But when you blast the pilot group for the money they make, with no real knowledge of how we are paid or what our job requires, it is annoying. I have worked jobs similar to yours, and I know that dealing with irate customers is not a picnic. However if an agent screws up a reservation, or a baggage handler puts the bags on the wrong cart, I am pretty sure no one is going to die. If the flight crew screws up that is a different story.

When you are dealing with a 500MPH airplane even a small mistake can result in hundreds of deaths, the difference between disaster and a safe arrival can sometimes be only seconds.

The excellent safety record in the U.S. is not luck. It is due to the training and experience of the flight crews. Even with this occasionally we do experience a crash.

You made my point for me with the Burger King reference. You get what you pay for. I fly because I love to do it, however if the cost of training and the time spent getting here far outweighs the benefits, it will not be long before the quality people move to another career choice.

One last question, and I am sure you will have a field day with it. But here goes. The next time you and your family get on an airplane to go somewhere, ask yourself how much are your lives worth? What ever number you come up with multiply that be the # of people on the airplane. Then when you peer disgustedly at the flight deck just remember we are not paid all this money for when things are going right, we get paid for when they go wrong.

I am an average pilot and I have had 5 engine failures and one fire to date among other things. And to date I have never had a passenger complain about the service rendered in an emergency.

Airplanes break. You might be on the next one!!

 
Twist:

What exactly is your point, anyway? That pilots make more money than you because they are directly responsible for a plane worth 10's of millions and the safety of 100's of people during their workday? That's old news, my Dickens fan. If you are that bitter, go find another job, will ya? You're obviously one of those guys who hates anyone who enjoys their job and/or chose to work towards a profession that makes more money than yours. Otherwise, you would have been dumping on those greedy upper managers who literally squandered MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS of dollars or those greedy IAM guys, who just got themselves a nice little contract, etc., etc. Instead of dumping on the only employee group that has stepped up to the plate when it has come to making some tough decisions, perhaps you can read another fine Dickens novel and come up with a new screen name? Then maybe you won't have so much time to read pilot salary quotes in USA Today and then spew half truths and insults to the rest of us on this board who will honestly spend their time trying to rebuild our airline instead of attacking each other?
 
ps A for ualdriver, my point is simple. Too high wages that do not reflect the real world makes for a poor company bottom line. Enjoy the ride now, at this rate it will be over for us all soon. Read: Bankruptcy Judge in our future.

And for the post from OntheStreet, Airplanes break. You might be on the next one. How am I suppose to take that statement? Would you really allow a plane to leave the gate when it's not safe? Are you trying to instill fear in the public with that statement? Oh Mr Moderator-- what do you think about that statement? To me it's quite chilling and morbid.