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GraftedOne
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- Dec 11, 2002
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I agree and we must get the news out to the young guys and gals that are just learning how to fly. Some how we have to get the news to them that the wages are going down like a rock in a pond and the quality of life is doing the same. FAST! The young guys may look at an RJ as cool when hired with 1500 hrs. but it does not look to cool if you have to fly the thing for 20 years at 1500 a month.
GraftedOne
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- Dec 11, 2002
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I would agree if it were 1978. However, I just got off a 12 day trip on a 747-400. My Capt. is a college grad with a masters degree in engineering. He has 25+ years with the airline and many training sessions that are very intense not to mention the 2 months away from family each time. On the 12 day trip he made many decisions that were MAJOR and affected the lives of 402 pax each flight. Weather was also a problem and many very low approaches were flown not to mention the preparation for diverting. With pax causing problems and sars and terrorists activity, I would think that anyone would want their family to travel on an aircraft with the best pilots in the industry that were being compensated for their professionalism. I have heard the old line, "Pilots are just a bunch of over paid bus drivers" all my aviation life. To tell you the truth, I am tired of the abuse. My advice to ANYONE that thinks pilots make too much money and dont work enough, is to go and get a masters from Embry Riddle and try to get a job with a major. If the person survives to make it to the majors, I am sure after the training and years of low wages, they will see things differently. Until then, please walk a mile in our shoes. Anyone can say "I think so and so makes too much money". I dont think any major pilot wants to be paid 950,000 a year, but we all want to be paid for our education and professionalism. There are many more factors that I did not mention that pilots must put up with/accomplish/go through, and I believe that all these things together make being a commercial airline pilot a tough job. If I had my family on an airplane that was flying for 14 hours in bad weather and making a landing with less than a 1/4 mile vis. I would pay a little extra in my ticket price to make sure the guy at the helm was the best. How much are our families worth? Mine is worth a lot. When I take them to the doctor I ask for the best. Why should I do any different on an airplane. Please dont take this as a personal affront. I am only defending my profession. I am getting tired of doing so. It seems that everyone wants to beat up on pilots. I think we have been put through plenty. Just ask any American,United,Eastern,Pan Am, or TWA pilot. Pretty soon the young prospective pilots will decide that the wages are too low, the time from home is too much(Christmas,Easter,Holidays,school plays,birthdays), and the idea of loss of life is too high a price to pay and decide to put their brain power to work elsewhere. You and everyone else better hope that that does not happen. Commuter pilots, military, cargo, corporate,major.....you guys are all worth professional wages. If it were not for you this country could not function. God bless every one of you for your sacrifice and professionalism.
Most of us aren''t claiming pilots are overpaid bus drivers. Sure, pay them professional wages. However, salaries of several hundred thousand a year are not professional wages - they''re obscene. Take a look at what a masters in engineering is worth in real life - you''re looking at ~$60k starting wages. Funny - that''s less than what was listed as the first officer pay for a 737 in 1978. Wouldn''t that be considered a "starting" wage for a pilot with a major? Ok, so it may take a few years to get that position. Consider that similar to getting a PhD in engineering - working for one of those, you''ll be 28-30 when entering the workforce, after several years of making $19k a year as a student (whose work the university will charge corporate sponsors $80k+ for). At that point, average salaries from top schools end up being near $75-80k. Funny, that''s just a bit more than a 737 FO was making in 1978. Are you arguing that a 737 FO right now would be worth 2.5 times what a PhD in Engineering would be worth? The fact is that, like it or not, pilot salaries in 1978 were equal to or better than what a professional salary is now, without accounting for inflation.
ONTHESTREET
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- Aug 20, 2002
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On 6/13/2003 10:43:45 AM lownslow wrote:
Most of us aren''t claiming pilots are overpaid bus drivers. Sure, pay them professional wages. However, salaries of several hundred thousand a year are not professional wages - they''re obscene. Take a look at what a masters in engineering is worth in real life - you''re looking at ~$60k starting wages. Funny - that''s less than what was listed as the first officer pay for a 737 in 1978. Wouldn''t that be considered a "starting" wage for a pilot with a major? Ok, so it may take a few years to get that position. Consider that similar to getting a PhD in engineering - working for one of those, you''ll be 28-30 when entering the workforce, after several years of making $19k a year as a student (whose work the university will charge corporate sponsors $80k+ for). At that point, average salaries from top schools end up being near $75-80k. Funny, that''s just a bit more than a 737 FO was making in 1978. Are you arguing that a 737 FO right now would be worth 2.5 times what a PhD in Engineering would be worth? The fact is that, like it or not, pilot salaries in 1978 were equal to or better than what a professional salary is now, without accounting for inflation.
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On 6/13/2003 10:43:45 AM lownslow wrote:
Most of us aren''t claiming pilots are overpaid bus drivers. Sure, pay them professional wages. However, salaries of several hundred thousand a year are not professional wages - they''re obscene. Take a look at what a masters in engineering is worth in real life - you''re looking at ~$60k starting wages. Funny - that''s less than what was listed as the first officer pay for a 737 in 1978. Wouldn''t that be considered a "starting" wage for a pilot with a major? Ok, so it may take a few years to get that position. Consider that similar to getting a PhD in engineering - working for one of those, you''ll be 28-30 when entering the workforce, after several years of making $19k a year as a student (whose work the university will charge corporate sponsors $80k+ for). At that point, average salaries from top schools end up being near $75-80k. Funny, that''s just a bit more than a 737 FO was making in 1978. Are you arguing that a 737 FO right now would be worth 2.5 times what a PhD in Engineering would be worth? The fact is that, like it or not, pilot salaries in 1978 were equal to or better than what a professional salary is now, without accounting for inflation.
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As often happens when this discussion comes up your facts are incorrect. I do not know of a single major starting wage that is anywhere close to 60000. The first officer wage listed for 78 was probably top of scale or close to it.
My first year with a major paid 36000. And at that point it was the most I had ever made as a pilot. The first day with the major airline was my 10TH year as a professional pilot!!
People who are armchair quarterbacks in the airline business have no idea what it takes to get to a major, or how poor said pilot is for the 10 years it takes to be there. Go back and tell me what the engineer makes on his 10th year out, and then compare that with the 28 k to 36k that is first year at a major.
On average a new professional pilot(Fresh out of college with shiny new untested flight certificates) will make about 15000 gross as a flight instructor. 2 to 4 years depending on economy, When he/she is lucky enough to get hired by a commuter, he gets a whopping raise to 18000 a year on average. And after 6 or 7 years in the game they will be lucky to be making 32000 as a commuter Captain. Remember, said pilot probably spent close to 300,000 dollers (Probably in student loans) for the privledge to get that 15000 job!
Flight fees alone, not including normal class tuition will run you about 25,000 a year at a good aviation university.
Do you actually think that anybody decent will want to do all this if the max pay for their profession tops out at 90k? (After 14 years with major and 10 prior to that.)
History tells us that aviation flown by the lowest bidder results in lots of twisted metal.
There is no room for mistakes or incompetance in the cockpit. Look around your average workplace, even a fairly well paid one and tell me what percentage of the work force you would trust flying a 600 mph airplane through all kinds of weather with your family aboard. My guess is at least 20 to 30 percent of your average office would fall in the "No Way" catagory. Aviation cannot afford to have 20 to 30% of the people to be screwups.
ONTHESTREET
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- Aug 20, 2002
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Just to add, there are only 637,000 pilots in the U.S. Of that only 140,000 hold an Airline Transport Certificate, and only 85,000 hold a flight instructor certificate.
Related to national population there are very few pilots out there and even less with the ability to fly an airliner. And that is WITH the high pay scales.
Your average joe that got their private rating in a 172 at the local airport does not have a clue what professional flying is or what it takes, this is not an ego trip because I was one, When I switched to an aviation university I already held a Private and Insturment rating with 600 hours. I found out in the first three days that I was so far behind the STUDENT pilots at the school that it was not even funny. They had knowledge on aerodynamics and flying that I had never even seen let alone knew up to that point!
Related to national population there are very few pilots out there and even less with the ability to fly an airliner. And that is WITH the high pay scales.
Your average joe that got their private rating in a 172 at the local airport does not have a clue what professional flying is or what it takes, this is not an ego trip because I was one, When I switched to an aviation university I already held a Private and Insturment rating with 600 hours. I found out in the first three days that I was so far behind the STUDENT pilots at the school that it was not even funny. They had knowledge on aerodynamics and flying that I had never even seen let alone knew up to that point!
GraftedOne
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- Dec 11, 2002
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Onthestreet....hhhhmmmmm. I wonder what that means. Well, I think it means that this poor guy is without an aviation job and his family is living on savings and food stamps. That is after he spent MEGA bucks to get his ratings and spent 10 years trying to get on with a major. 14 years with a major and now without a job. WHAT A GREAT DEAL! NOT!!!! I am in full agreement with you Onthestreet. People just dont have a clue what it takes to become a professional pilot. The idea that a pilot would make 60k a year the first year makes me laugh. Again, not a clue! I made the huge amount of 6k my first year out of college. Oh, that included scrubbing toilets as part of my job. I know that an engineer would make more than that and not have to scrub toilets. The second year was 18k, 3rd year-10,200, 4th year-15,600. My first year with a major I earned 18k. WOW that is huge money isnt it? I dont think so. The time away from my family (wife/child) was averaged about 20 nights and 25 days. 13 flights a day and all approaches to mins. 1/2 mile vis. was fun to. NOT! I am sure that engineers are gone that much and work 15 hours a day and have min. rest before heading out at 5:30am to fly in the bad weather with peoples lives in their hands. Most pilots spend 15-18 days and nights away from family. About 288 hours on duty= 51.50 an [email protected] have never seen or heard of an engineer telling his kids for the 15th year in a row that he would not be home for Christmas. I have never heard an engineer tell his kids that he got shot down or made an approach to a pitching deck with a half mile vis and heavy rain to get his current job. I have never heard an engineer tell his wife that many of his college class mates were killed trying to get an engineering job. Can an engineer lose his job for looking away from his desk for 10 seconds? Can an engineer kill 400 people in the blink of an eye? Can an engineer lose his job if he is not in perfect health?
I could go on and on with this kind of stuff but I won't because unless you have walked in a professional pilots shoes you don't have a clue. You might think you do but you don't. If you think you do then show me your airline I.D. There are MANY fine professional pilots ONTHESTREET right now and will be for a few years to come and they would say that you are full of bull. You see the wages that you quoted are after 12 years with a major. If a pilot is on the street for 4 or 5 years not to mention all the other things I have said.....what does that make his salary avg? Many families fell apart because of the fine airline life and obscene wages. Just so you will know the truth an American F/O MD-80 makes 81.57 a flight hour. After you work up the number of hours he is on duty you can figure his pay is about 21.20 an hour. If that is obscene you are out of your Freeking mind! That by the way is in his 12th year! I just want you to know that I believe that you earn every dollar that you make and I would be a jerk to say that you don't. So, lownslow, go out and get yourself a major job and then come back and tell me that pilots don't deserve their wages and that engineer jobs can be compared to pilots. I would bet a million that you would have a different opinion if you did. You are severly misguided. I have fought this fight before and it is getting to me. I respect your opinion but I don't agree at all. Man, will we ever stop fighting this lack of information?
I could go on and on with this kind of stuff but I won't because unless you have walked in a professional pilots shoes you don't have a clue. You might think you do but you don't. If you think you do then show me your airline I.D. There are MANY fine professional pilots ONTHESTREET right now and will be for a few years to come and they would say that you are full of bull. You see the wages that you quoted are after 12 years with a major. If a pilot is on the street for 4 or 5 years not to mention all the other things I have said.....what does that make his salary avg? Many families fell apart because of the fine airline life and obscene wages. Just so you will know the truth an American F/O MD-80 makes 81.57 a flight hour. After you work up the number of hours he is on duty you can figure his pay is about 21.20 an hour. If that is obscene you are out of your Freeking mind! That by the way is in his 12th year! I just want you to know that I believe that you earn every dollar that you make and I would be a jerk to say that you don't. So, lownslow, go out and get yourself a major job and then come back and tell me that pilots don't deserve their wages and that engineer jobs can be compared to pilots. I would bet a million that you would have a different opinion if you did. You are severly misguided. I have fought this fight before and it is getting to me. I respect your opinion but I don't agree at all. Man, will we ever stop fighting this lack of information?
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On 6/13/2003 2:24:33 PM GraftedOne wrote:
Can an engineer kill 400 people in the blink of an eye?
So, lownslow, go out and get yourself a major job and then come back and tell me that pilots don''t deserve their wages and that engineer jobs can be compared to pilots.
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On 6/13/2003 2:24:33 PM GraftedOne wrote:
Can an engineer kill 400 people in the blink of an eye?
So, lownslow, go out and get yourself a major job and then come back and tell me that pilots don''t deserve their wages and that engineer jobs can be compared to pilots.
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Two points -
1) I never was saying that current salaries are out of line. However, the article which was referred to was advocating keeping salaries at the 1978 level fully adjusted for inflation, which does equate to obscene salaries.
2) I could give you countless examples of when engineers, making mistakes ranging from simple to stupid to ones which never could have been predicted beforehand, have resulted in the loss of countless lives. To give you a few examples, though:
a) MV Estonia - sunk 27 September 1994 - 137 survivors, 852 dead (design failure of bow locks resulting in harmonic excitement within the car deck by the water rushing in, leading to a rapid capsize of the ferry)
B) Silver Bridge (Point Pleasant, WV) - collapsed 12/15/67 - 46 dead
c) Hyatt Regency walkway collapse - 1981 - 114 dead, 200 injured
d) Teton Dam failure (near Rexburg, ID)- 5/6/1976 - 14 dead, 17,500 acres severely damaged, $1 billion in total damage
e) St. Francis Dam Collapse (Los Angeles) - 4/12/1928 - more than 450 dead
and probably the whopper of them all (granted, many things led to the accident, but engineers making mistakes truly made it possible):
f) Chernobyl - 4/26/86 - an estimated 7000 dead by most accounts, with some claims up to 150,000. 2,000,000 acres uninhabitable for at least 200 years, with a total cleanup cost of up to $400 billion.
GraftedOne
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- Dec 11, 2002
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Your point of ref. as to engineers is well taken. Point made. I hardly think that an engineers job can be catagorized with being a pilot though. Do the engineers take the heat for those goofs? I dont think so. I believe the company does. It may interest you to know that if I ding an airplane and kill a passenger in many countries around the world I am held for murder and could be put to death. Did you read all the other points of ref. ? Yes, engineers do have people to worry about. I also hear what you are saying about the point that you are not disagreeing with current salarys. I did say in a previous post that I dont believe that any pilot wants to make 950,000 a year. I do believe that todays Capt. salary is ok but if you had information on my company and others you would see that we have gained very very little to none in the past 20 years and now we are going backward. 950,000, yes, that is a stretch. 250-300 for a Capt. on a 747-400.....The ones I fly with are worth every penny and then some. If you and your family would have been with me last year in the Orient at the end of a 14 hour trip and had seen what we went through.......you would have tipped the Capt.
Just a question? Who is worth an obscene salary? Who says what obscene is? I think the high school kid that just got a NIKE contract for 90million would say he is worth it. Most of the CEO's would say they are worth the millions they make. Heck, the UAL managers that got 6million dollar bonuses WHILE IN BANKRUPTCY think they are worth it. Pro Sports, Doctors, lawyers? On and on and on. OH, here is a good one. I just got back from taking my dog to the vet. "2" Minutes with the vet. 133.51. Is he worth it? I guess, I paid him. Man, that is $4005 dollars an hour. WOW. His office is full too. Maybe I should have been a vet. Does anyone go to their vet and tell him he makes too much money. I am not saying that you think we make too much money right now but there are many many that do. Why is there such a focus on pilot salaries and not on others? I would ask that others put their salaries up for comment. Any takers out there that are not pilots??? Please!
Dont get me wrong on this....I believe I make a good living but I do think I earn every penny of it just as you do yours. Oh one final thing. My brother in law is an engineer and he makes far more than I will ever hope to make, even as a 747-400 Capt.
Just a question? Who is worth an obscene salary? Who says what obscene is? I think the high school kid that just got a NIKE contract for 90million would say he is worth it. Most of the CEO's would say they are worth the millions they make. Heck, the UAL managers that got 6million dollar bonuses WHILE IN BANKRUPTCY think they are worth it. Pro Sports, Doctors, lawyers? On and on and on. OH, here is a good one. I just got back from taking my dog to the vet. "2" Minutes with the vet. 133.51. Is he worth it? I guess, I paid him. Man, that is $4005 dollars an hour. WOW. His office is full too. Maybe I should have been a vet. Does anyone go to their vet and tell him he makes too much money. I am not saying that you think we make too much money right now but there are many many that do. Why is there such a focus on pilot salaries and not on others? I would ask that others put their salaries up for comment. Any takers out there that are not pilots??? Please!
Dont get me wrong on this....I believe I make a good living but I do think I earn every penny of it just as you do yours. Oh one final thing. My brother in law is an engineer and he makes far more than I will ever hope to make, even as a 747-400 Capt.
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On 6/13/2003 6:23:36 PM GraftedOne wrote:
Do the engineers take the heat for those goofs? I dont think so. I believe the company does.
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On 6/13/2003 6:23:36 PM GraftedOne wrote:
Do the engineers take the heat for those goofs? I dont think so. I believe the company does.
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Actually, they can (and do) take the heat. In some instances, this can result in criminal charges. Granted, this is rare within the United States, however. Criminal charges will normally occur when it is clear that there was gross negligence in their practice. What happens more often within the United States is a revocation of the PE license, which effectively kills their career as an engineer. This is roughly equivalent to having a pilot''s license or ATP cert. pulled. Assuming there are no injuries or deaths, and no gross negligence, losing your job is normally the worst that will happen.
Now, as for pilot salaries, I believe one of the unfortunate things which has happened has been the dramatic difference between the top pay and the bottom pay at an airline. While dramatically increasing the salaries on small aircraft, particularly RJs and turboprops, could be very harmful to the economics of serving small cities, I do believe that they should be increased for service between larger cities. I don''t think that there is any need for any airline to run an RJ between DCA and LGA every 30 minutes, and increasing pay on these aircraft could aid in a shift back towards larger aircraft and less frequent flights. The result could be no significant change in available capacity or ticket cost, but less crowded skies and an increase in average salary (albeit for fewer pilots).
The real shame, IMO, is the manner in which seniority rules everything, and that a pilot moving from one airline to another can end up starting over. Seniority should count for something, but hearing stories of pilots hired at Eastern in the late 70s, moving to NW after Eastern failed, losing all seniority, ending up on furlough, and now nearing the end of their career still in the right seat of a DC-9, exactly where they were nearly 30 years ago, is shameful...
"2) I could give you countless examples of when engineers, making mistakes ranging from simple to stupid to ones which never could have been predicted beforehand, have resulted in the loss of countless lives. To give you a few examples, though:"
In how many of those cases did the engineers die with the victims?
In how many of those cases did the engineers die with the victims?
whaledriver
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- Jan 20, 2003
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Busdriver,
Excellent point.
Excellent point.
As a F/A, some advice is coming to mind that pilots have been telling us for years whenever they hear F/As point out something we don''t like about our job:
"If it is so terrible, then quit! But you won''t because this is the best job you''ll ever be able to get."
Oh, and another one:
"As long as there are many people standing in line to do your job for less money, nothing will improve."
Don''t get me wrong, pilots, I certainly sympathize with you and agree this industry is not one I would recommend to anyone I care about. And I have a great deal of respect for what it takes to become a pilot for a major airline. I just never thought the above advice would ever apply to pilots!
It certainly is sad what airline jobs are being reduced to.
"If it is so terrible, then quit! But you won''t because this is the best job you''ll ever be able to get."
Oh, and another one:
"As long as there are many people standing in line to do your job for less money, nothing will improve."
Don''t get me wrong, pilots, I certainly sympathize with you and agree this industry is not one I would recommend to anyone I care about. And I have a great deal of respect for what it takes to become a pilot for a major airline. I just never thought the above advice would ever apply to pilots!
It certainly is sad what airline jobs are being reduced to.
