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Negotiations update?

Bob,

At what point do all of your figures and facts actually get us an agreement?

Well, the biggest challenge to getting a good agreement is making sure the membership is informed and has the will to fight for it. As a Union leader I feel its my responsibility to give the members as much info as I can so they wont make their decision based primarily on information the company chooses to feed them.

When I first got into office the negotiating committee was using SWA for comparasions that favored the company but then not using them for comparasions that favored the workers. I was told that "we cant compare ours wages to SWA because they dont have OH". Well who does? We were using other carriers who earned the same or less even though they farmed out nearly as much OH as SWA and we were using SWA CASMs and other metrics but not wages. Much of what I heard from Union representatives was simply whatever they were told by the company or the Economist they hired from Eclat, the same company that duped us in 2003.

I chose not to rely on what the company wanted to feed us and look for info that supports our demands. Perhaps I'm being bold but I'd like to think that some of the info I put out had some part in the rejection of the substandard TA that was rejected last August. Since then Continental agreed to an interum deal thats superior to our rejected TA, Jet Blue has started paying their guys as much as $38/hr, and UPS just settled a deal that brings them up to $50.13 by 2013. $17/hr more than us with fully paid medical, retro and bonuses.

The company has exhausted their recall list, with huge numbers declining the recall and they are scrambling to find mechanics to accomplish the work they have. In fact several initiatives have been delayed due to not being able to get the staff in place. They've reinstituted the Flex rates in several locations in an attempt to lure people in, the problem is in places like New York they arent getting anybody locally with the quals and the ones with the quals are from elsewhere so they probably wont stay. The option of sending the work out really isnt there because third party maint providers are also having trouble getting staff for the work they are already committed to and the airlines continually suck out what they have, AA being one but not the only one of them. Several other carriers are looking for mechanics as well. Even SWA is hiring mechanics this year despite their recent merger. While UAL/CAL announced a layoff none of them were mechanics. Kalitta had to ship mechanics in from overseas, with most of the growth for Aviation projected to be in Asia most of those workers wont stay either. There are only around 140 A&P schools left in the country and many of the students in those schools are foreign nationals that will get their tickets and go home because thats where most of the future growth in Aviation will be. In other words despite the economy, despite the fuel and anything else they want to throw out there we are in a position to make some serious gains, thats the purpose of putting this info out there because when everything is said and done it is the membership that will either accept or reject the contract and they will do so based upon the information they have. Their willingness to take on the company is really the only leverage we have at the table.

If you look at the rejected TA you can see that the company's objective was to use their OH A&P staff as a huge pool to supply the line for the next several years. Its obvious that the intent was to drive the A&Ps out of OH to the line, and to do so at wage rates that would give AA an advantage over competitors who will have to compete with each other for scarce fresh meat off the street. With only around 3000 A&P mechanics a year getting certified, many of them with no intentions on working in the US Airline industry, those carriers will be forced to agree to much higher wages to attract the interest of the few young workers that have an interest in the airlines. FBOs will be forced to pay more as well, further increasing competition, and those higher costs will be passed on to the carriers. If AA had a huge pool in OH of mechanics, who are tied to AA because of the seniority system which discourages Airline hopping, with an economic incentive to go out to the line they would be in a very advantageous position. Right now the company is looking at its OH as a huge pool of what is rapidly becoming a scarce commodity, A&P mechanics, and they are looking for language that would allow them to harvest it at very advantageous rates.

So at what point will this lead to a contract? I cant say, as you are aware the RLA is very restrictive but I do believe that if the company knows that we have them where we want them and they know that we know it as well and are prepared to do whatever we need to do then we will get a better deal than if I didnt dig up what I could and said nothing. The situation is becoming critical for the company, if they wait too long they will face manpower shortages and the inability to recruit needed workers because they will be competing with other carriers for those workers. When managers come to the union asking them if they know anybody who may be looking for a job you know they are desperate. They may have 900 applications but how many of them are qualified?
 
Well, the biggest challenge to getting a good agreement is making sure the membership is informed and has the will to fight for it. As a Union leader I feel its my responsibility to give the members as much info as I can so they wont make their decision based primarily on information the company chooses to feed them.

When I first got into office the negotiating committee was using SWA for comparasions that favored the company but then not using them for comparasions that favored the workers. I was told that "we cant compare ours wages to SWA because they dont have OH". Well who does? We were using other carriers who earned the same or less even though they farmed out nearly as much OH as SWA and we were using SWA CASMs and other metrics but not wages. Much of what I heard from Union representatives was simply whatever they were told by the company or the Economist they hired from Eclat, the same company that duped us in 2003.

I chose not to rely on what the company wanted to feed us and look for info that supports our demands. Perhaps I'm being bold but I'd like to think that some of the info I put out had some part in the rejection of the substandard TA that was rejected last August. Since then Continental agreed to an interum deal thats superior to our rejected TA, Jet Blue has started paying their guys as much as $38/hr, and UPS just settled a deal that brings them up to $50.13 by 2013. $17/hr more than us with fully paid medical, retro and bonuses.

The company has exhausted their recall list, with huge numbers declining the recall and they are scrambling to find mechanics to accomplish the work they have. In fact several initiatives have been delayed due to not being able to get the staff in place. They've reinstituted the Flex rates in several locations in an attempt to lure people in, the problem is in places like New York they arent getting anybody locally with the quals and the ones with the quals are from elsewhere so they probably wont stay. The option of sending the work out really isnt there because third party maint providers are also having trouble getting staff for the work they are already committed to and the airlines continually suck out what they have, AA being one but not the only one of them. Several other carriers are looking for mechanics as well. Even SWA is hiring mechanics this year despite their recent merger. While UAL/CAL announced a layoff none of them were mechanics. Kalitta had to ship mechanics in from overseas, with most of the growth for Aviation projected to be in Asia most of those workers wont stay either. There are only around 140 A&P schools left in the country and many of the students in those schools are foreign nationals that will get their tickets and go home because thats where most of the future growth in Aviation will be. In other words despite the economy, despite the fuel and anything else they want to throw out there we are in a position to make some serious gains, thats the purpose of putting this info out there because when everything is said and done it is the membership that will either accept or reject the contract and they will do so based upon the information they have. Their willingness to take on the company is really the only leverage we have at the table.

If you look at the rejected TA you can see that the company's objective was to use their OH A&P staff as a huge pool to supply the line for the next several years. Its obvious that the intent was to drive the A&Ps out of OH to the line, and to do so at wage rates that would give AA an advantage over competitors who will have to compete with each other for scarce fresh meat off the street. With only around 3000 A&P mechanics a year getting certified, many of them with no intentions on working in the US Airline industry, those carriers will be forced to agree to much higher wages to attract the interest of the few young workers that have an interest in the airlines. FBOs will be forced to pay more as well, further increasing competition, and those higher costs will be passed on to the carriers. If AA had a huge pool in OH of mechanics, who are tied to AA because of the seniority system which discourages Airline hopping, with an economic incentive to go out to the line they would be in a very advantageous position. Right now the company is looking at its OH as a huge pool of what is rapidly becoming a scarce commodity, A&P mechanics, and they are looking for language that would allow them to harvest it at very advantageous rates.

So at what point will this lead to a contract? I cant say, as you are aware the RLA is very restrictive but I do believe that if the company knows that we have them where we want them and they know that we know it as well and are prepared to do whatever we need to do then we will get a better deal than if I didnt dig up what I could and said nothing. The situation is becoming critical for the company, if they wait too long they will face manpower shortages and the inability to recruit needed workers because they will be competing with other carriers for those workers. When managers come to the union asking them if they know anybody who may be looking for a job you know they are desperate. They may have 900 applications but how many of them are qualified?

Your efforts and information are appreciated by most everyone. Thank you!
 
Had managers asking me if I knew of anyone on the streets available to work.
Even though I second guessed it..I did ask two people if they were interested.
They went to orientation Friday, go to Gen Fam Monday and on the dock the 7th.
Overtime is now unlimited and they are pushing real hard for triple assignments in an 8hr period.
I heard 757's will be grounding soon do to out of time maintenence..not enough people to keep em rolling and in the air on time.
Weekend flights are booked and D2 from DFW to TUL is a joke.
The wife is currently stuck in MSP trying to get to EWR since this morning. (Even ID90's and full price seats).
She had to fly Delta into MSP because all AA flights were full and overbooked.
All flights all airlines from MSP to EWR, JFK, and LGA booked until tomorrow.
Bankrupt ? My ass !
 
AA Management:

Dont sit on your hands and ass,

Cancel your hiring and recall plans now!!!!

Accelerate your groundiing of the Md-80's

Do not expect your employee to fund your stupidity!!!!!
Do not expect me to fund your ignorance.

Get a comtract with your employees and stop with the politics!!!!
 
Had managers asking me if I knew of anyone on the streets available to work.
Even though I second guessed it..I did ask two people if they were interested.
They went to orientation Friday, go to Gen Fam Monday and on the dock the 7th.

I thought Bob said nobody wanted to come work for AA?...
 
I thought Bob said nobody wanted to come work for AA?...
I didn't take it Bob was saying "nobody".
Thought he said a fewer would stay in the states and a higher percentage across the pond ?
Anyways..I might have talked them into AA by telling them the SMA program could be right around the corner.
They have ties here in the community or their preference would have been UPS.
Go figure
 
I thought Bob said nobody wanted to come work for AA?...

Would you work for AA knowing what the real truth was about being an A&P
18 years on nights. Which is really exciting especially this past winter when the tempertures were in the teens most the time.
one weeks vacation for the first five years. I bet Applebees gives you at least two weeks to start.
A medical plan the pretty much suxs and costs more year after year
Working weekends for the first 19 years (I just bid my first available Fri-Sat and it only took 19 years not enough time for a Sat-Sun)
Fours hours extra for working a Holiday (wooo-hooo)
half pay for calling in sick
And the big one no raise for the last eight years. That should have them breaking down the doors
Welcome to the world of Aviation at New Yorks LaGuardia Airport which by the way has got to be the arse-hole of the industry because the place is a dump.
Its not that nobody wants to work for AA I think Bob feels once they know the truth about the glory of Aviation they will realize there is none left and they may be better off elsewhere. Like Applebees
 
Would you work for AA knowing what the real truth was about being an A&P
18 years on nights. Which is really exciting especially this past winter when the tempertures were in the teens most the time.
one weeks vacation for the first five years. I bet Applebees gives you at least two weeks to start.
A medical plan the pretty much suxs and costs more year after year
Working weekends for the first 19 years (I just bid my first available Fri-Sat and it only took 19 years not enough time for a Sat-Sun)
Fours hours extra for working a Holiday (wooo-hooo)
half pay for calling in sick
And the big one no raise for the last eight years. That should have them breaking down the doors
Welcome to the world of Aviation at New Yorks LaGuardia Airport which by the way has got to be the arse-hole of the industry because the place is a dump.
Its not that nobody wants to work for AA I think Bob feels once they know the truth about the glory of Aviation they will realize there is none left and they may be better off elsewhere. Like Applebees
I don't think AA gives a rat's ass who works on their planes. The place is a cess pool, and they won't fire guys that fight, steal and lie because their shorthanded. Like Bob O. said it's desperation time, but AA will let the place go into the toilet before they pay us accordingly. Not to say that operations aren't in the toilet already, but we're make our way to the sh&&t tank soon. Totally different company from 20 years ago. I hate to be the one to say it....but we're doomed! Applebees doesn't sound to bad after all.
 
At the OH Bases why wouldn't AA start another "apprentice AMT training program"?

They did this once before and many fleet service clerks, stock clerks, and other non-licensed employees got their qualified training and obtianed their license after being signed off with credited experience.

This would be a nice program for all of us low lifes that don't measure up to those of you already supreme beings.

Does anyone dispute that this would be away to get licensed techs and at the same time benefit those that would like to have their license?

Why wouldn't the TWU advocate this and demonstrate they represent everyone that pays 2 hours pay per month?

As far as negotiations and claims the TWU is playing the game well.

I still say we are all just awaiting the companys best and final offer which we have not seen to date.
Why not ask AA and the Mediator for another round of super negotiations where we actually get an agreement instead of a T/A on one miniscule Article per month?
 
At the OH Bases why wouldn't AA start another "apprentice AMT training program"?

They did this once before and many fleet service clerks, stock clerks, and other non-licensed employees got their qualified training and obtianed their license after being signed off with credited experience.

This would be a nice program for all of us low lifes that don't measure up to those of you already supreme beings.

Does anyone dispute that this would be away to get licensed techs and at the same time benefit those that would like to have their license?

Why wouldn't the TWU advocate this and demonstrate they represent everyone that pays 2 hours pay per month?

As far as negotiations and claims the TWU is playing the game well.

I still say we are all just awaiting the companys best and final offer which we have not seen to date.
Why not ask AA and the Mediator for another round of super negotiations where we actually get an agreement instead of a T/A on one miniscule Article per month?



I say we start working like the mediator. Actually work one week a month!!! Take Monday and Friday as travel days!! And for three days we can only work on easy things like a tire change or interior items!! We should leave all the important things untill we actually get a contract.

That is a so called govement worker for ya!!

Definition of MEDIATOR
1: one that mediates; especially : one that mediates between parties at variance

MEDIATOR DO YOUR DAMB JOB!! SO WE CAN DO OURS!!!
 
At the OH Bases why wouldn't AA start another "apprentice AMT training program"?

They did this once before and many fleet service clerks, stock clerks, and other non-licensed employees got their qualified training and obtianed their license after being signed off with credited experience.

This would be a nice program for all of us low lifes that don't measure up to those of you already supreme beings.

Does anyone dispute that this would be away to get licensed techs and at the same time benefit those that would like to have their license?

And who is going to train them you?
We have at least 16 A&P ticket holders upgraded from ramp in LGA with no experience.
Put your transfer in and come here and step up to the plate.
They need nothing but training and I'm not interested.
Better yet whats in it for me...
Lets start with more money
 
At the OH Bases why wouldn't AA start another "apprentice AMT training program"?

They did this once before and many fleet service clerks, stock clerks, and other non-licensed employees got their qualified training and obtianed their license after being signed off with credited experience.

This would be a nice program for all of us low lifes that don't measure up to those of you already supreme beings.

Does anyone dispute that this would be away to get licensed techs and at the same time benefit those that would like to have their license?

I believe there are many welders/machinists/facilities types that already possess the skills to become, with FAA mandated training, A&P mechanics but fewer fleet service/stock clerk/clerical help/gaurds types with the mechanical aptitude. IMO, the apprentice program in the early ninties was a joke compared to the training one would get at an accredited technical school. I had 15 years of electrical/mechanical experience before getting my tickets at a cost of approx. $7,000 at a state technical school (cheapest route). They are only tickets to learn as there is much more "on the job" training required to be proficient. There are many that want A&P license pay without the training expense and responsibilty that goes with it. The way the TWU is dumbing down our profession, it won't be long before anyone that can put a nut on a bolt or screw in a light bulb will get a skill premium equivalent to an A&P license, making it virtually worthless.
 
And I know several with A&P which was granted via thousands of dollars in training and certified by Spartan School that I wouldn't let them work on my Lawnmower exhaust. It has been proven the A&P does NOT make a good AMT!

In addition the good AMT's I know were all trained by someone. I have yet to meet the AMT God that doesn't need to be trained.

How about you "Time for Change" was somone kind enough to train you? Or are you one of those special types that didnt need help? Are you one of those that will never return the favor you were granted by others with experience?
 
And I know several with A&P which was granted via thousands of dollars in training and certified by Spartan School that I wouldn't let them work on my Lawnmower exhaust. It has been proven the A&P does NOT make a good AMT!

I can't hold a tune to save my life and 4 years at Juilliard won't change that. I may learn the basics and may be able to get by, but a good musician I will never be. Same goes for being an artist. If you aren't born with it, you will never be great no matter how much schooling you have. You need to be a musician before you go to Juilliard and you need to be an artist before you go to art school. If you didn't grow up taking apart the lawnmower just to see how it worked, an a&p ticket won't make you a good mechanic. I've worked lot of guys in my 25 years as an a&p that I wouldn't trust with my lawn mower either. A&P school gives you the basics and you learn for the rest of your career, but you need to be a mechanic before you go to a&p school, most were, but many weren't.

In addition the good AMT's I know were all trained by someone. I have yet to meet the AMT God that doesn't need to be trained.

Absolutely, a good AMT will learn fast, a bad one will never learn.

How about you "Time for Change" was somone kind enough to train you? Or are you one of those special types that didnt need help? Are you one of those that will never return the favor you were granted by others with experience?

I have no problem training someone that has the capacity to learn, but get discouraged with those that don't have the knack. I have nothing against them, but they should stick to what they are good at.

ps: not trying to single out anyone here
 
Like many other professions, there is no substitute for hands on experience.
You learn by doing. Schools only give you the basics. It is up to the individual to see how mych he/she is willing to learn.
 

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