Please educate me. I see a spirited debate on night VFR on another thread and find myself scratching my head. My military background had plenty of night VFR, and a large part of it was before NVGs. Pre NVG, my limits for night were hard 1000'/3 miles no matter who was in trouble for SAR (the old boatload of pregnant nuns would have been out of luck), training limits were higher. Is this a question of regulations in civilian aviation or personal choice. As long as minimum equipment requirements are met, isn't night VFR a legal option as long as the pilot is rated? Or is this a single vs multi engine argument?
Night Vfr
- Thread starter gannet
- Start date
Not sure how much of a help I will be here but here I go (if I make a mistake, please don't crusify me):
1) Must have TC approval on your ops spec.
2) Single engine night is only for ferry essential AIR CREW non revenue flights.
3) If flying passengers A/C must be twin engine, and pilot IFR & night rated and current.
4) Standard night equipment required for both.
5) Flight Plans required.
Ok I think thats it, but I am sure I have missed some. <_<
1) Must have TC approval on your ops spec.
2) Single engine night is only for ferry essential AIR CREW non revenue flights.
3) If flying passengers A/C must be twin engine, and pilot IFR & night rated and current.
4) Standard night equipment required for both.
5) Flight Plans required.
Ok I think thats it, but I am sure I have missed some. <_<
Stealthray
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all the above are correct if you are a commericial operator,therefore most vfr operators are day vfr only. In the private or corporate world, no OC reqiured and you can carry passengers if the pilot has a night rating
I have flown commercially at night in both Canada and the US. In the States commercial single pilot, single engine night is the norm.
In west Texas at night it can be very dark. Even if the ceiling is several thousand feet and the reported visibility several miles, if it is overcast there are times when there are no ground lights or horizon. The ground is not perceptable. If an autorotation is necessary it would be a crap shoot at the bottom.
On two or three occasions, unforecast early morning fog formed. No need to dwell on the horror of being caught at night in the fog. Fortunately we were on the ground those times. Once or twice unforecast dust storms caused problems. Unfortunately we were in the air at the time.
Given that the modern gas turbine is a highly reliable piece of equipment, having two engines is a great comfort.
If one is going to fly at night, one should be confident in one's IFR abilities. Real IFR is more than spending thirty minutes under a hood being able to catch glimpses of the ground through the chin bubble. Being IFR rated is no guarentee of being able to cope with inadvertant IFR, a fact to which many accident reports will attest.
In west Texas at night it can be very dark. Even if the ceiling is several thousand feet and the reported visibility several miles, if it is overcast there are times when there are no ground lights or horizon. The ground is not perceptable. If an autorotation is necessary it would be a crap shoot at the bottom.
On two or three occasions, unforecast early morning fog formed. No need to dwell on the horror of being caught at night in the fog. Fortunately we were on the ground those times. Once or twice unforecast dust storms caused problems. Unfortunately we were in the air at the time.
Given that the modern gas turbine is a highly reliable piece of equipment, having two engines is a great comfort.
If one is going to fly at night, one should be confident in one's IFR abilities. Real IFR is more than spending thirty minutes under a hood being able to catch glimpses of the ground through the chin bubble. Being IFR rated is no guarentee of being able to cope with inadvertant IFR, a fact to which many accident reports will attest.
I agree that flying at night can be essentially IFR even under VFR conditions. We always briefed moonrise, illumination by moon and illumination levels from built up areas. Black@ss nights make me nervous, a flight from Cartwright to Goose comes to mind and a search 30 miles off Halifax, but conversely, some of my best memories were flying on nights with great illumination. A shooting star while flying over the Bay de Chaleur that lit up the cockpit or nights with a full moon and clear skies. I guess I fall into the group of people that feel properly done, night flying can be done with not much more risk than day flying. The key is properly done. You can't just blast off and not know your safe altitudes, and terrain is always a prime concern as are illumination levels.
This topic brings back a memory of coming back to town a night in a Bell 47 with a 100 hr pilot on His first job. With the customer sitting in the seat between Us He came up with the statement ' wow "this is the first time I ever flew at night ,is this ever fun.
Needless to say the customer was not impressed.
:elvis:
:elvis: :elvis:
Needless to say the customer was not impressed.
:elvis:
:elvis: :elvis:This topic brings back a memory of coming back to town a night in a Bell 47 with a 100 hr pilot on His first job. With the customer sitting in the seat between Us He came up with the statement ' wow "this is the first time I ever flew at night ,is this ever fun.
Needless to say the customer was not impressed.
:elvis: :elvis: :elvis:
Needless to say the customer was not impressed.
:elvis:
:elvis: :elvis:Elvis, if you were on a fire (and if you were a pilot), you'd probably have just punched the bucket into the crik.
I agree with you - "properly done", but my personal opinion is that blanket single pilot operations are not safe, for the reasons you mention. There have been scores of occurrences of single pilots getting overwhelmed by loss of spatial orientation in the dark. John F Kennedy Jr being the most high-profile, and recently an air ambulance 407 in Australia with a high-time IFR driver. I'm firmly in the 'autopilot' and/or 'Otto pilot in the other seat' camp.
As an aside, the next Vortex will have an article on the value of a competant copilot, written by a VERY experienced IFR pilot.
I agree with you - "properly done", but my personal opinion is that blanket single pilot operations are not safe, for the reasons you mention. There have been scores of occurrences of single pilots getting overwhelmed by loss of spatial orientation in the dark. John F Kennedy Jr being the most high-profile, and recently an air ambulance 407 in Australia with a high-time IFR driver. I'm firmly in the 'autopilot' and/or 'Otto pilot in the other seat' camp.
As an aside, the next Vortex will have an article on the value of a competant copilot, written by a VERY experienced IFR pilot.
The only commercial helicopter Night VFR flights permitted in Canada (that I've heard of) have had very strict regulations, and are very similar to IFR flight i.e. between radio-aids, minimum altitudes, good weather and lighting at destination etc.
In the USA the standards for night VFR are not very much different from day VFR.
Looking at the tragic record of single pilot, single engine, night VFR, medevac/EMS flights highlights the problems that can arise by flying like this.
Thank goodness (and the MoT) we don't do things like that up here.
In the USA the standards for night VFR are not very much different from day VFR.
Looking at the tragic record of single pilot, single engine, night VFR, medevac/EMS flights highlights the problems that can arise by flying like this.
Thank goodness (and the MoT) we don't do things like that up here.
CTD:
A competant copilot is worth their weight in gold when things go to heck in a handbasket. Having one guy that should know exactly where you are when murking and the right way to go to avoid higher terrain in inadvertant IFR situations is the safest way to do it. Also very useful at times when the leans get you!
Elvis:
If you were on fire in a two engine ride you may have canned the wrong engine. I did that in the simulator once, and its easier to do than you might think .
A competant copilot is worth their weight in gold when things go to heck in a handbasket. Having one guy that should know exactly where you are when murking and the right way to go to avoid higher terrain in inadvertant IFR situations is the safest way to do it. Also very useful at times when the leans get you!
Elvis:
If you were on fire in a two engine ride you may have canned the wrong engine. I did that in the simulator once, and its easier to do than you might think
.cyclic monkey
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Elvis, don't let these guys bug you about finger trouble, they always look at the negative side.......
Just imagine you were ordering a beer...........now you'd have two........what a deal !!
By the way, the flight suit you ordered has just been finished. Here it is on our mannequin.
We will have it shipped to you before your big show with Ms. Dion in Vegas at the HAI convention.
There's no doubt about it,......you will look like a hunka', a hunka' burning love.
Just imagine you were ordering a beer...........now you'd have two........what a deal !!
By the way, the flight suit you ordered has just been finished. Here it is on our mannequin.
We will have it shipped to you before your big show with Ms. Dion in Vegas at the HAI convention.
There's no doubt about it,......you will look like a hunka', a hunka' burning love.
