No low-fare rival? You pay

[LCC_#1]

LCC#1:

Piney Bob called you out and I am going to echo his challenge.

Come back and show us the walk up fares in markets where WN is the dominant carrier and tell us that they are taking advantage of folks.

Talk is cheap. We want some facts and figures from you to support your claim.

Unless, of course, you are just making stuff up as you go along.
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ELP_WN_Psgr,

Ok, first of all, my apologies for being too emotional...forgot to take the meds.

Secondly, I will never pretend that the new US Airways will EVER be able to have the cost of a SWA, so the company will attempt to screw the last minute passenger for all they can. I do NOT agree with this and even stated that in my attempt to see F/C remarketed as Enhanced Economy. In that I stated that no ticket should be over $750 unless transatlantic or S. America if he time should come.

Having said that, the PHL paper is deceptive. I have a VERY hard time believing that Orbitz or any other internet discount site has nothing cheap to offer. If they were looking at last minute, then that gets a big DUH!!

So I wanted to make sure I was not all smoke, so I decided to get on my new MAC and go to SWA and just check around. Granted no SWA ticket was the crazy over $1000 that was found on US, however I must say that for the premier low cost carrier, I was surprised at how high some of the fares were. Now I can tell you that the northeastern flights within that region were pretty cheap. MY own opinion is that..yes, there is competition, and this area seems to be a hotbed of press from years of overpricing. In otherwords, I do believe the press keeps on the pressure. Yes, I do believe they have influence. Nobody likes bad press.

Now when I left the northeast and ventured west and thru traditional SW territory, things changed. Let me go on record in saying that SW has a wonderful system of not screwing the passenger for ticket changing that I feel ALL airlnes should look at. I don't think there IS anything such as a restricted ticket...or at least I didn't come across one.

Ticket prices, whether they seem high or low, will always be subjective, so I would like to say that this is MY opinion only. I felt that many of these prices were VERY high considering this is SWA. I checked flights from BWI as they basically rule there yet there IS some competition. Also, I pulled up some fares from ELP, since there is a connection there for you or you wouldn't have it in your screen name. I will let all of you form your own opinions for flights reviewed for tomorrow, returning Fri.

BWI-FLL $458.60
BWI-DFW $572 (ATA partner)
BWI-Ft Meyers $411
BWI- MCI $452
BWI-LAS $598
BWI-JAX $400
BWI-Little Rock $516
BWI-Lubbock $598 Poor Lubbock
BWI-LAX $598
BWI-MSY $574
BWI-OAK $598
BWI-MCO $374
BWI-PHX $598
and ......
I had to leave the best for last...poor old Harlingen, Texas...wherever THAT is. They pay $598
Also, from El Paso
to BWI $598
to AUS $344
to DAL $316
to Harlingen, TX $540 How do you justify THAT ELP_WN_Psgr?
Oh no, SWA NEVER screws in shorthauls.

Poor Harlingen, Texas...but it's refundable, grandma.

Now I will hear all the "well still not as high as US", but proportionately I dare to differ. I get angry because of all the advertised low fares of $99-$130 coast to coast yet NOBODY BOTHERS to look at how screwed the Harlingen, Texans of the country are.

I have developed my opinion and that is that SWA is a saavy airline that could market a fart. They have the entire industry thinking all their fares are under $400 if not even lower. I appreciate that they run an excellent system. If they are smart, they will stay the course and keep running things as they are.

BUT, if US HAD the SWA model, I do believe they would kick ass. I will not get in a pissing match but offering services like an EXTENSIVE FF program, Clubs, a/c variety still puts US in a completely different category costwise and that has nothing to do with our labor cost. Remember, our management of old didn't want the SWA contracts cause they were actually higher in cost than ours. So they shot for JBlu and settled for AWA...ironically.

We merged in as companies in November. That has been 3 months. In our last merger with Piedmont, the names and of course certificates stayed seperate and a merger DATE was selected. That process was over a two year period. AWA decided to do things differently as they were the airline changing names. In some respects that is good. Changing things quickly as far as certain things is good, but other things take time and changing the old US structure just may take some time.

I find it amazing how utterly impatient most are with this merger. 3 MONTHS people. I know that many think you can click your heals and all will be better, but it will take time. Mr. Parker stated that 2006 will see the transition of US Airways to a low cost carrier and yes that means lower fares. BUT...BUT..BUT...I do believe the word was transition, not THIS VERY MOMENT.

I have faith that Mr. Parker will do as he has said and transition US Airways in such a way as to bring those ridiculous $1000 fares down and out. It is happening in some markets already.

Meanwhile, perhaps you should complain to your own carrier of choice about how badly the citizens of poor ol Harlingen, Texas are taking it up the rear.

 

[ELP_WN_Psgr]

I had to leave the best for last...poor old Harlingen, Texas...wherever THAT is. They pay $598
Also, from El Paso
to BWI $598
to AUS $344
to DAL $316
to Harlingen, TX $540 How do you justify THAT ELP_WN_Psgr?
Oh no, SWA NEVER screws in shorthauls.

I sure hate to sound like Bill Clinton, but it all depends on what your definition of short haul is.

When you say "Harlingen...wherever that is..." you might ought to have taken the time to find out wherever that is is.

El Paso to Harlingen, driving, is 800 miles. 12 1/2 hrs roughly and that is hauling butt down the interstate...driving 75 where permitted by law.

As a comparison, look at Charlotte to Buffalo. It is not quite 100 miles shorter than HRL-ELP. Comparing apples-to-apples, a fully refundable unrestricted coach fare.....the $540 on WN between HRL & ELP turns in to $1,052 between CLT and BUF.

And as far as "grandma" traveling.....if she's over 65 she could always have bought a fully refundable Sr Citizen fare on WN for $278 for the RT.

But nice try, though. The problem, when you are thinking Texas....is there are quite often flights between cities within the state that just aren't short haul.

From El Paso you can drive (or fly) over to California in less time than it takes to get to some of the other cities in the state.

Texas is a big state. It is no longer the biggest, since Alaska was admitted to the union back in 1959. But it is still pretty big. And you know, with global warming and all, when Alaska thaws out and melts Texas might, once .again, be the biggest

 

[wnbubbleboy]

Do you really think WN would enter any of these smaller towns in Texas today? ............., but if WN was starting today there is no way CRP makes the start-up list.

We are a Texas company and our Mecca is DAL. CRP is a party town; spring break is a tradition there. It's Texas' Myrtle Beach(sp?). It would be on the list.

 

[sfb]

The $270 refundable one-way fare from ELP to HRL looks expensive, 'tis true, but there are a couple of reasons for that. To start, as the gentleman from El Paso pointed out, though ELP-HRL is an intrastate route, it is well over 600 miles in a straight line and just a shade over 800 miles to drive. By comparison, driving from El Paso to Los Angeles is actually two miles shorter.

But the other reason for the pricing of ELP-HRL as a walk-up at $270 is the fact that it's a connecting route, and on WN, short-to-medium-haul connecting itineraries are often priced near the sum of the two non-stop itineraries. SAT-HRL runs $112 walk-up and SAT-ELP runs $168 walk-up (SAT is the most direct connecting option). They don't engage in some of the pricing shenanigans that US Airways (like most network carriers) still uses. By way of example, I can buy an unrestricted BUF-PHL-MCO one-way ticket for $196. If I just want BUF-PHL, the price is $514 for an unrestricted one-way ticket. The unrestricted one-way PHL-CLT ticket is $599. But I can buy an unrestricted PHL-CLT-JAX ticket for $199.

The walk-up fares are generally priced at a moderate level systemwide. BWI-LIT is $258 each way, while CLT-LIT is $599 each way. BWI-RSW at $206 each way compares to CLT-RSW at $326. BWI-MSY at $287 each way compares to CLT-MSY at $521 each way. Again, all of this pricing is aimed at stimulating business travel by offering moderate fares.

 

[BoeingBoy]

One thing I've learned from this discussion - Harlington and El Paso must be "happening" places. The cheaper tickets sold out - or is that a WN policy on not selling lower fares so close to travel time no matter how many empty seats there are? No other airline can get you between them cheaper on the days mentioned according to a quick check on Kayak.com, however.

Maybe one of these days I'll mosey down to those two cities and see for myself....

Jim

 

[LCC_#1]

My point through this is that not all tickets on SW are cheap and yes that is relative to who you talk to. HRL-ELP is the same price as BWI-LAX. Is the $598 a cap at SW? If so, that is great.

Oh, and btw, my post was long and you may have missed the part that I am all for getting rid of those ridiculous fares so it isn't necessary to throw rates up. I was acting in response that I prove what I stated earlier. This isn't a competition for who is right but the HRL-ELP ticket price proves the point that SW plays the pricing game the same where some small town cities are concerned. We have many at US, but sorry, you ain't gonna convince me that it is fair to charge the same price for 800 miles as a cross country flight..Nope..nadda.

 

[BoeingBoy]

This isn't a competition for who is right but the HRL-ELP ticket price proves the point that SW plays the pricing game the same where some small town cities are concerned.

I think you'll find that WN doesn't play the same game as the legacy carriers at all.....

Instead of seeing that WN's maximum long haul fares are a bargain compared to the legecies, you're focusing on how much their maximum short haul is compared to their maximum long haul.

WN apparently doesn't set their fares based on competitive pressures, market share, a desire to fill the most seats, or any of the other factors that the legacies look at. They've decided that they can carry a passenger between any two points they serve in the "Lower 48" and make a profit with a maximum fare of $598 (subject to revision going forward).

On shorter segments, they set their fares so as to be profitable considering their cost and their historic load factor - around 65-70%. And yes, short haul can really be that much more expensive to operate than long haul on a per mile basis, especially when it's composed of two even shorter flights as in the case of ELP-HRL.

With WN, you'll never see a straigt "fare per mile" comparison between short haul and long haul because 1 - there isn't a straight line relationship on the cost side, and 2 - they've voluntarily capped their maximum fare.

On the other hand, you'll generally never see an inverse relationship between fare & distance when looking at the same fare class with WN - i.e., the shorter distance being much more expensive than the long haul - as you'll routinely see with the legacies.

WN isn't perfect by any means, but the legacy tendency to gouge their customers when possible isn't one of their faults.

Jim

 

[sfb]

My point through this is that not all tickets on SW are cheap and yes that is relative to who you talk to. HRL-ELP is the same price as BWI-LAX. Is the $598 a cap at SW? If so, that is great.

No, not all fares are cheap. But you'll never find a fare at WN that is just flat-out outrageous. Compare the HRL-ELP walk-up fare in cents per mile to a competitive route like OAK-LAX. The walk-up fare for OAK-LAX is $117, yielding 34.7 cents/mile. The walk-up fare of $270 from ELP to HRL works out to 41.3 cents/mile as the crow flies, or 37.0 cents/mile traveled on the shortest possible connection via SAT. Most of the connections are via HOU which gives a yield of 28.3 cents/mile traveled. It's not even broadly out of line with the $89 refundable PIT-PHL fare, which is 33.3 cents/mile. The refundable PIT-RDU (connecting at PHL) fare is $159, or 48.5 cents/direct-line mile.

Oh, and btw, my post was long and you may have missed the part that I am all for getting rid of those ridiculous fares so it isn't necessary to throw rates up. I was acting in response that I prove what I stated earlier. This isn't a competition for who is right but the HRL-ELP ticket price proves the point that SW plays the pricing game the same where some small town cities are concerned. We have many at US, but sorry, you ain't gonna convince me that it is fair to charge the same price for 800 miles as a cross country flight..Nope..nadda.

Well, it's all basically a function of the fact that WN has chosen to cap their maximum fare at $299 each way. And the total cost of transporting a passenger non-stop from the West Coast to the East Coast is probably not much higher than an 800-mile journey incorporating one or two stops with a change of planes.

And WN prices pretty much at or below their peers on comparable routes. BOS-BUF on B6 is $194 walk-up for 396 miles -- or almost 50 cents/mile. SAV-MEM on AirTran is $311 walk-up, or 57 cents/mile.