No to Chemo, Yes to Assisted Suicide

[delldude]

So Dell, Let me get this straight...

Based on your post above, you are in favor of "high cost, low value" treatments. You're opposed to "performance measures" for determining which procedures work best and therefore should be covered. Really????

Funny, "performance measures" are EXACTLY the approach used by the Mayo Clinic, Cleveland Clinic and other medical centers that are unquestionably the best that the country has to offer. They are constantly evaluating which procedures work best and which ones fall short. Both of these medical centers frequently point out that some of the most expensive procedures do not live up to their initial promises and they drop those from their options to treat patients. For example, there are multiple ways to treat colon cancer. Both the Cleveland Clinic and the Mayo Clinic have panels review which ones would be the best options. It's smart medicine that produces the best results. Of course, I'm sure that you think know better than they do.

It's too bad that you so clearly want us to spend more, get worse results, and cover fewer people.

Increase HC coverage to some 40 Million uninsured........how many doctors are getting increased?

Looks like a whole boat load of UI's will overload the system or haven't you and your progressive minions seen that in your crystal ball? 😱

 

[Garfield1966]

Reform is possible if they just get out of they way.

Please share with the class what reform you are referring too? They had a shot across the bow during the Clinton Admin. They suck it with scare tactics as they are doing now and no changes have taken place to improve health care. Until some sort of reform is rammed down their throat they will not change. They are sitting on a gravy train and have enough money to defend their monopoly till the cows come home. At some point the people will wake up and tell the Ins/Hosp/Dr to stuff it.

Personally I would rather see the government place controls on the cost aspect and let the Ins/Hosp/drug dealers deal with it. Or better yet, have a gov ins company, and they say we will pay "X" for this procedure and you will do it. Tired of the Ins companies bending us over a barrel with no consequences. Tired of doctors having self review behind closed doors. Tired of a 4 hour hosp stay for a hernia costing over $15k. Just plain tired of the health care BS.

 

[Freedom4all]

Please share with the class what reform you are referring too? They had a shot across the bow during the Clinton Admin. They suck it with scare tactics as they are doing now and no changes have taken place to improve health care. Until some sort of reform is rammed down their throat they will not change. They are sitting on a gravy train and have enough money to defend their monopoly till the cows come home. At some point the people will wake up and tell the Ins/Hosp/Dr to stuff it.

Personally I would rather see the government place controls on the cost aspect and let the Ins/Hosp/drug dealers deal with it. Or better yet, have a gov ins company, and they say we will pay "X" for this procedure and you will do it. Tired of the Ins companies bending us over a barrel with no consequences. Tired of doctors having self review behind closed doors. Tired of a 4 hour hosp stay for a hernia costing over $15k. Just plain tired of the health care BS.

Plain and simple there have been other ideas submitted by the republicans as amendments and the democrats wouldn't allow them in. They were much like the ideas presented by the Whole Foods guy.

1. Remove the legal obstacles which slow the creation of high deductible health insurance plans and Health Savings Accounts. The combination of high deductible health insurance and Health Savings Accounts is one solution that could solve many of our health care problems. For example, Whole Foods Market pays 100% of the premiums for all our team members who work 30 hours or more per week (about 89% of all team members) for our high deductible health insurance plan, and provides up to $1,800 per year in additional health care dollars through deposits into their own Personal Wellness Accounts to spend as they choose on their own health and wellness. Money not spent in one year rolls over to the next and grows over time. Our team members therefore spend their own health care dollars until the annual deductible is covered (about $2,500) and the insurance plan kicks in. This creates incentives to spend the first $2,500 more carefully. Our plan’s costs are much lower than typical health insurance, while providing a very high degree of team member satisfaction.

2. Change the tax laws so that that employer-provided health insurance and individually owned health insurance have exactly the same tax benefits. Right now employer health insurance benefits are fully tax deductible for employers but private health insurance is not. This is unfair.

3. Repeal all state laws which prevent insurance companies from competing across state lines. We should all have the legal right to purchase health insurance from any insurance company in any state and we should be able use that health insurance wherever we live. Health insurance should be portable everywhere.

4. Repeal all government mandates regarding what insurance companies must cover. These mandates have increased the cost of health insurance many billions of dollars. What is insured and what is not insured should be determined by individual health insurance customer preferences and not through special interest lobbying.

5. Enact tort reform to end the ruinous lawsuits that force doctors into paying insurance costs of hundreds of thousands of dollars per year. These costs are ultimately being passed back to us through much higher prices for health care.

6. Make health care costs transparent so that consumers will understand what health care treatments cost. How many people know what their last doctor’s visit cost? What other goods or services do we as consumers buy without knowing how much they will cost us? We need a system where people can compare and contrast costs and services.

7. Enact Medicare reform: we need to face up to the actuarial fact that Medicare is heading towards bankruptcy and move towards greater patient empowerment and responsibility.

8. Permit individuals to make voluntary tax deductible donations on their IRS tax forms to help the millions of people who have no insurance and aren’t covered by Medicare, Medicaid, SCHIP or any other government program.

 

[Garfield1966]

It's very easy to pass amendments that sound good but you know will never pass or see the light of day. Case in point is campaign reform. Both sides claim to say they want it. Both sides will torpedo the other so that it never gets passed. That's why it has never happened. Neither side really want it. Most of the reforms that the reps have submitted (if they even did) have no chance of seeing the light of day. The ins companies are never going to let any thing pass that threatens their bottom line.

IMO the law suits are needed to keep the Dr honest. If the penalty for negligence or malfeasance does not hurt, there is no incentive not to do it.

I definitely do not like the idea of Ins companies deciding what they want to cover.

BTW, why is it that none of these reforms were passed during the first 6 years of Bush's terms? Think about it.

 

[dapoes]

Please share with the class what reform you are referring too? They had a shot across the bow during the Clinton Admin. They suck it with scare tactics as they are doing now and no changes have taken place to improve health care. Until some sort of reform is rammed down their throat they will not change. They are sitting on a gravy train and have enough money to defend their monopoly till the cows come home. At some point the people will wake up and tell the Ins/Hosp/Dr to stuff it.

Personally I would rather see the government place controls on the cost aspect and let the Ins/Hosp/drug dealers deal with it. Or better yet, have a gov ins company, and they say we will pay "X" for this procedure and you will do it. Tired of the Ins companies bending us over a barrel with no consequences. Tired of doctors having self review behind closed doors. Tired of a 4 hour hosp stay for a hernia costing over $15k. Just plain tired of the health care BS.

If memory recalls, i believe you held the CATO institute in high regards as a trust worthy and highly respected source of facts, opinions, etc. Is that still true to this date as they are heavily against the new administration trying to cram down Obamacare on the masses? Or does that no longer apply?

 

[Garfield1966]

Did you read the second paragraph? The part that starts with "I would RATHER..." I do not agree with some aspects of the current legislation being discussed. But I do hope that it will lead to something better. Unfortunately, with all the fear mongering on both sides, the same thing that happned in the 90's will happen now ... nothing and we will continue to get screwed from all sides.

 

[Freedom4all]

It's very easy to pass amendments that sound good but you know will never pass or see the light of day. Case in point is campaign reform. Both sides claim to say they want it. Both sides will torpedo the other so that it never gets passed. That's why it has never happened. Neither side really want it. Most of the reforms that the reps have submitted (if they even did) have no chance of seeing the light of day. The ins companies are never going to let any thing pass that threatens their bottom line.

IMO the law suits are needed to keep the Dr honest. If the penalty for negligence or malfeasance does not hurt, there is no incentive not to do it.

I definitely do not like the idea of Ins companies deciding what they want to cover.

BTW, why is it that none of these reforms were passed during the first 6 years of Bush's terms? Think about it.

So whats your argument now? Default back to "Blame Bush" Blah Blah Blah? Its the dems that want to push gov/nanny control over your health care. That hasn't changed since back in the clinton years. Looks like they will have as much success this time around.

Look at the bill! Its a boon for trial lawyers, and yet Obama wants less tests done, take a pill, etc. Guess who will wind up getting sued? Not Gov insurance company, the doctors.

FORBES Inside The Health Care Bill
Walter Olson , 07.22.09, 12:20 PM EDT
A trial lawyer power grab that may unleash a flood of Medicare lawsuits.

Just before the House leadership's 794-page health care reform bill went to a Ways & Means markup last Thursday, a remarkable provision was slipped in that amounts to one of the more audacious and far-reaching trial lawyer power grabs seen on Capitol Hill in a while. Republicans managed to fend it off for the moment--but don't be surprised if it shows up again down the road in some form.

The provision would have drastically widened the scope of lawsuits against what are known as Medicare third-party defendants. In the simplest scenario, Medicare has paid the bills of someone injured in, say, a car accident, and then learns that the beneficiary has successfully sued and obtained damages from the other driver.

 

[dapoes]

Did you read the second paragraph? The part that starts with "I would RATHER..." I do not agree with some aspects of the current legislation being discussed. But I do hope that it will lead to something better. Unfortunately, with all the fear mongering on both sides, the same thing that happned in the 90's will happen now ... nothing and we will continue to get screwed from all sides.

Go study up on what the CATO Institute has to say on the subject, as well as the real world solutions they provide. Then come back and share your thoughts with the rest of the class.

 

[Garfield1966]

No that is not what I said.

What I said was:

BTW, why is it that none of these reforms were passed during the first 6 years of Bush's terms? Think about it.

IMO, they did not want it then for the same reason they do not want it now. Both sides put forth ideas as the opposition party when they know it will not pass and they can used it as campaign fodder. None of them ant reform. They just want to look like they want it and blame the loss on the other guy.

If you're going to accuse me of something, at least get it right.

Edit:

The dems knew that this reform would not fly. They get to say they tried but the 'evil rep' shot it down. Whether it works or not is any ones guess. That's how politics works IMO.

 

[delldude]

It's very easy to pass amendments that sound good but you know will never pass or see the light of day. Case in point is campaign reform. Both sides claim to say they want it. Both sides will torpedo the other so that it never gets passed. That's why it has never happened. Neither side really want it. Most of the reforms that the reps have submitted (if they even did) have no chance of seeing the light of day. The ins companies are never going to let any thing pass that threatens their bottom line.

Don't underestimate these progressive maroon's for one second Gar.

IMO the law suits are needed to keep the Dr honest. If the penalty for negligence or malfeasance does not hurt, there is no incentive not to do it.

You get campaign money from the trial lawyers too?

I definitely do not like the idea of Ins companies deciding what they want to cover.

But you'll let Obama decide?

BTW, why is it that none of these reforms were passed during the first 6 years of Bush's terms? Think about it.

Got side tracked with your favorite war.....for openers......

 

[Flying Titan]

Eliminate the deductability of health premiums and don't allow companies to provide it.

When you get about 200 million pairs of eyes watching what things cost because they are now direct payors, you'll see the cost drop like an anchor.

The above willl never happen because there are to many IOU's out there on all sides.

Piney,
If we were starting from scratch, this might very well be a good solution. It is the ultimate market-based approach. It would certainly be interesting, but as you point out the last sentence is the key.

By the way, you finished your post (line not shown above) by taking a shot at Obama about taxes. Exactly, how much have your federal taxes gone up since Obama has been in office? For me, and I would guess just about everyone on this board, they HAVEN'T GONE UP ONE PENNY, and have probably gone down (increased child tax deduction, etc.).

 

[Garfield1966]

Dell,

Politicians are out to line their own pockets and maintain their power first and foremost.

No I don't. I would rather see a set percentage go to the victim, a small percentage go to the lawyer, the rest goes to a charity, victims fund, research, or what ever. The penalty should be a percentage of the doctors NW. Not enough to put them out of business (unless they deserve to be out of business) but enough to leave a mark. Each time they are convicted the percentage should increase till perhaps the 3rd or forth (less if you are so inclined) till the penalty does inclue revocation of their license to practice.

I suspect the Fed will have more things covered than the insurance companies.

BS. There was plenty of legislation passed in the 6 years. They did not pass health reform for the same reason no one wants it passed now. It is not good for their campaign coffers and just like the tobacco industry, they fight against legislation to hurt their industry. Unfortunately the tobacco industry is fighting a loosing battle unlike the health care industry. If the republicans and dems wanted to pass campaign reform, health reform and banking reform, they would have done it. They don't, they won't and we get screwed.

 

[Freedom4all]

What's the Difference Between Sen. Specter in 1994 and Sen. Specter in 2009? VIDEO LINK

 

[KCFlyer]

So if you are in need of a specific procedure to prolong your life and they have deemed it not worthy for you....I guess you could then identify with your claim of a death panel.

Dell...what is the difference between a government program that tells an 88 year old that they are not worthy of a triple bypass and a for profit insurance company telling a 35 year old cancer patient that they are not worthy of the treatment plan that was recommended for them? Oh yes....the 35 year old has the "freedom" to cash in his retirement savings, sell the house and max out credit cards to GET that treatment.

 

[Freedom4all]

The most obvious thing about this whole health care bruha is that the Government is not interested in healthcare reform, they want takeover healthcare all together and dictate who gets what and how. Bad idea.