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No to Chemo, Yes to Assisted Suicide

So now we're saying, "Hey let's allow the Federal Government decide the value of a human life"

Like Adolph himself said regarding the mentally retarded. He referred to them as "Useless Eaters". So do we refuse to care for those who are determined by the Government as "Useless Eaters" What if it's your 84 year old Mother is declared a Useless Eater? What then? Move to a useless eater friendly country?

Another funny thing happened to me while I was having a discussion on abortion with some of my ultra liberal friends. We were debating the fine points of the issue and since my Mom was only 16 when I was born I smirked and said "Good thing abortion was illegal in 1954 or I'd have likely been sucked into a sink"

Point is this, when you take these things out of the abstract and into reality you find actual humans are affected.

So I say LONG LIVE THE USELESS EATERS


I would expect this type of response from Freedom. Yours typically are better thought out.

These treat or don't treat decisions are being made every day. They are being made by hospitals on some levels but more commonly by the insurance companies. I would suspect in most cases the decisions are being made based on the bottom line as opposed to the best interest of the patient. In some cases (Terri Schiavo) they are being made by the government and the religious right with no concern for the patient.

As Tech pointed out earlier, this conversation must take place. Do we as a society continue to through $1 million dollars at a new born infant who has perhaps a 10% chance of living at best when their are counties in our country that do not even have a health clinic much less a hospital with in a reasonable distance. I am not saying I know the answer but it is a question that needs to be asked.

As for abortion. Whether or not it was legal has has little to do with your presence. I believe it has more to do with the fact that your mother did not want to abort her pregnancy. Had she wanted to abort, she would have had the opportunity but there would have been a higher likely hood of her not surviving the procedure. Just because a procedure is legal does not mean everyone will take advantage of the procedure (there were over 4 million birth in 2007 when abortion was legal) and just because a procedure is illegal does not mean that abortions will not take place (those number were not reported along with the womens deaths due to the fact that it was illegal).

Humans are always affected but there are times when you need to take the personal feelings out and look at the raw data. This is done for the same reasons a doctor does not treat a family member and a lawyer does not represent a family member. You loose your perspective and put personal feelings before logic and sound reasoning.

In the example I gave above, logic would indicate that all other things being equal, the old guy bites it. Personally, if the old guy is your dad, that complicates things a bit. Logic tends to take a back seat when feelings enter the equation.
 
Especially when its in the healthcare bill in black and white?
If it is in black and white you must have it at the ready. How come you did not post it?

Please post which plan says that health care will be rationed. Highlight the portion that says rationing of care since it is in black and white.

Read this:

NIH Acting Director Raynard Kington didn't say anything about putting cost-based restrictions on anyone's health care. Kington told the House Appropriations Committee that "if we receive high-quality applications that meet the definition for comparative effectiveness research that include cost we will fund them." Funding research into which treatments give the best results for the least money is one thing, and it is a big leap from there to a government decree restricting care. Anyway, NIH has been backing "cost-effectiveness research" for years. In a breakdown of funding categories, NIH estimates that it specifically supported about $50 million in such research in both 2007 and 2008.

In the House committee hearing (held March 26), Rep. Todd Tiahrt of Kansas expressed concern that such research would "lead to rationed health care." Kington, a physician, responded: "I certainly understand the concern that any policy effort might severely restrict choices in whatever way. But comparative effectiveness research doesn't necessarily lead to that. Comparative effectiveness research can provide useful information to clinician, to patients and providers that make better decisions about what works under what circumstances for which patients and might actually complement the movement that you noted toward personalized medicine."...

Neither claim [of funded abortion or rationing of care] can be proven in any reforms now being considered in Congress...

"Furthermore, none of the bills call explicitly for cuts in Medicare coverage, much less rationing, under a public plan."
Bold by me.
Source
The Annenberg Political Fact Check is a project of the Annenberg Public Policy Center of the University of Pennsylvania.
 
If it is in black and white you must have it at the ready. How come you did not post it?

Please post which plan says that health care will be rationed. Highlight the portion that says rationing of care since it is in black and white.

Read this:

Bold by me.
Source
The Annenberg Political Fact Check is a project of the Annenberg Public Policy Center of the University of Pennsylvania.
Factcheck.org is hardly an unbiased source. In fact they often get it wrong.

The ad neglects to mention that President Obama hasn't proposed a government-run plan and, in fact, has rejected the idea.

Anyone who has been paying attention knows he has said it multiple times. Plus, every single nationalized health system in other countries ration care. How is it that if we were to do the same the results would be different. It wouldn't, thats what people are peeved about. The gov knows it, his health care advisors knows it, as they trumpet it in various books they have authored. Its not to difficult to understand that if happens under every other nationalized system, it will happen here.
 
Its not to difficult to understand that if happens under every other nationalized system, it will happen here.

It happens here every day. The current system does not work. Care will always be rationed it's just a matter of who does it. Insurance companies are rationing it based on the $$$. We can find horror stories on both sides of the border and all over the world. The fact remains that our mortality rate, life expectancy and over all quality of care in the US falls well below where it should and blow most of the countries that we criticize as a comparison.

The insurance companies and hospitals have been given an opportunity to change and they failed to do so. Now change will be forced on them. The auto industry was given a warning shot across the bow in the late 70's and they chose to ignore it. Now they and we suffer the consequences. When the people decide to wake up and be pro active rather than reactive, perhaps things will get changed on our terms verses the governments terms.
 
Anyone who has been paying attention knows he has said it multiple times. Plus, every single nationalized health system in other countries ration care. How is it that if we were to do the same the results would be different. It wouldn't, thats what people are peeved about. The gov knows it, his health care advisors knows it, as they trumpet it in various books they have authored. Its not to difficult to understand that if happens under every other nationalized system, it will happen here.


I suppose you're one of those people who think we don't ALREADY ration health care in this country. Try telling that to the 45 million people who don't have coverage right now. Try telling that to the people who have coverage but the insurer says "no" to their preferred doctor or their doctor's preferred choice of treatment options. That ALREADY happens every day. And we get the privilege of paying more for it every year. Please don't act like there aren't plenty of bureaucrats deciding exactly what procedures you will or won't have today. They're called private insurance companies. And when you get really sick (think serious cancer) and you become too disabled to keep your job - guess what, you join the 45M who don't even have that.

Meanwhile, every other major industrialized country in the world has figured out a way to cover ALL of their citizens and do it at a lower cost per patient that we do.
 
It happens here every day. The current system does not work. Care will always be rationed it's just a matter of who does it. Insurance companies are rationing it based on the $$$. We can find horror stories on both sides of the border and all over the world. The fact remains that our mortality rate, life expectancy and over all quality of care in the US falls well below where it should and blow most of the countries that we criticize as a comparison.

The insurance companies and hospitals have been given an opportunity to change and they failed to do so. Now change will be forced on them. The auto industry was given a warning shot across the bow in the late 70's and they chose to ignore it. Now they and we suffer the consequences. When the people decide to wake up and be pro active rather than reactive, perhaps things will get changed on our terms verses the governments terms.

It is not the governments role to decide who wins, or who loses. Who lives or who dies. Quality of care far surpasses any other nation, why do you think that other people come here when they cant get the appropriate care in their own socialized health care system?

Besides that argument is weak as look who subsidizes a majority of senior health care---Medicare.

Mortality rate? Has nothing really to do with health care more so with life style and choices. Arent we also the fattest nation as well? The crap we put in our bellies will drive anyone to an early grave, but thats the freedom we have. Super Size Me Baby!

Most of the food we eat isn't even available in other countries or banned outright. The standard here is high fructose corn syrup for decades or some aspartame.

But wait don't we have a big government bureaucracy thats supposed to be looking out for us? You know, making sure that the food we ingest is safe? Yes its called FDA!
 
I suppose you're one of those people who think we don't ALREADY ration health care in this country. Try telling that to the 45 million people who don't have coverage right now. Try telling that to the people who have coverage but the insurer says "no" to their preferred doctor or their doctor's preferred choice of treatment options. That ALREADY happens every day. And we get the privilege of paying more for it every year. Please don't act like there aren't plenty of bureaucrats deciding exactly what procedures you will or won't have today. They're called private insurance companies. And when you get really sick (think serious cancer) and you become too disabled to keep your job - guess what, you join the 45M who don't even have that.

Theres already plenty of hard data available that a majority of that 45 million have no health care because they choose not get it. The CBO has already stated that there very well may be that same amount go without health care under Obamacare. So we are trading a broken system for another broken system. That makes no sense whatsoever.

Meanwhile, every other major industrialized country in the world has figured out a way to cover ALL of their citizens and do it at a lower cost per patient that we do.
No they do not, that couldn't be further from the truth. Why do others come here for the higher quality care? Ask Former Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi after having a pacemaker implanted at the Cleveland Heart Center.

So why should you care?

Because this is one of those specific examples of a wealthy European leader traveling to America for life-saving medical care that he himself deemed superior to the care available in his own country. If our health care advancements are the envy of the world and are hand-picked by leaders for whom money is no object, why would we want to strangle that innovation with government control?
 
Factcheck.org is hardly an unbiased source. In fact they often get it wrong.
They have provided scholarly sources for everything. You have not. So I say; prove it.
every single nationalized health system in other countries ration care
Prove it.

Wait one minute. You said this:

Especially when its [rationing of health care] in the healthcare bill in black and white?
Go ahead and do us all a favor and produce this black and white document...or prove that this is in any plan in the United States.
The gov knows it, his health care advisors knows it, as they trumpet it in various books they have authored.
Okay. Post the books and the authors.
 
My insurance doesn't ration care. If I want to go out of network, it costs twice as much. That is how they keep my premiums lower while still giving me choice. The network is big enough that I don't have to go out of network, but if I want to and am willing to pay double, then I can. Government will not have any choices and will ration health care. I'm not interested!

Examples of government "successes"... Want section 8 housing? Get on the waiting list. Want to go to UT Austin? Get on the waiting list. Want to file for unemployment? Hope you enjoy musak, and that's if you're lucky to get in the phone queue.

What's worse is that those examples serve a small proportion of the population. If the entire population has to wait in line like they do in Canada, the silver lining is that Social Security will do a little better because there won't be as many of us to survive long enough to collect it.
 
So now we're saying, "Hey let's allow the Federal Government decide the value of a human life"

Like Adolph himself said regarding the mentally retarded. He referred to them as "Useless Eaters"...
So I say LONG LIVE THE USELESS EATERS

Wow... that's what my dad calls Congress
 
Who are Obamas Healthcare advisors?

Ezekiel Emanuel (brother of Rahm Emanuel) More info:The Real Emanuel Brother to Watch
Emanuel is the health-policy adviser at the Office of Management and Budget and a member of Federal Council on Comparative Effectiveness Research.

Video of Ezekiel Emanuel on Euthanasia

Ezekiel Emanuel denies proposing euthanasia, but he does propose denying treatment to those not worthy of the expense. Those people die. That is euthanasia.

He is a supporter of health care rationing, which is relevant to the current health care debate. In a Lancet article earlier this year, he suggested that age be a proper method of allocating scarce resources, and indeed, stated that age based allocation is not invidious discrimination.

June 2008 JAMA Article where he call's for a reinterpretation of the physician's Hippocratic Oath to take account of "costs" and "effect on others".
The prudent physician is not deemed particularly competent, but rather inadequate. This culture is further reinforced by a unique understanding of professional obligations, specifically, the Hippocratic Oath's admonition to "use my power to help the sick to the best of my ability and judgment" as an imperative to do everything for the patient regardless of cost or effect on others.
A lot of people are frightened that someone who thinks like Emanuel is at the center of an administration seeking to remake the entire health care system. Having read these two articles, I think there is very real cause for concern.

Source: Principles for allocation of scarce medical interventions, January 2009

Unlike allocation by sex or race, allocation by age is not invidious discrimination; every person lives through different life stages rather than being a single age. Even if 25-year-olds receive priority over 65-year-olds, everyone who is 65 years now was previously 25 years. Treating 65-yearolds differently because of stereotypes or falsehoods would be ageist; treating them differently because they have already had more life-years is not.
He seems to be saying, be ageist, just call it something different. Since when is health care a "scarce resource?" Another trumped up term used to instill fear and uncertainty, IE: Never let a good crisis go to waste.

In the Hastings Center Report, in which he explicitly advocates rationing based on what appears to be a quality of life measurement. From the piece:

This civic republican or deliberative democratic conception of the good provides both procedural and substantive insights for developing a just allocation of health care resources. Procedurally, it suggests the need for public forums to deliberate about which health services should be considered basic and should be socially guaranteed.

Substantively, it suggests services that promote the continuation of the polity-those that ensure healthy future generations, ensure development of practical reasoning skills, and ensure full and active participation by citizens in public deliberations-are to be socially guaranteed as basic.

Conversely, services provided to individuals who are irreversibly prevented from being or becoming participating citizens are not basic and should not be guaranteed. An obvious example is not guaranteeing health services to patients with dementia.

Cass R. Sunstein
Columbia Law Review 2004:
In protecting safety, health, and the environment, government has increasingly relied on cost-benefit analysis. In undertaking cost-benefit analysis, the government has monetized risks of death through the idea of the value of a statistical life (VSL), currently assessed at about $6.1 million. But the government should rely instead on the value of a statistical life-year (VSLY), in a way that would likely result in lower benefits calculations for elderly people, and higher benefits calculations for children. The hard question involves not whether to undertake this shift, but how to monetize life-years, and here willingness to pay (WTP) is generally the place not to end but to begin.

A recent report from President Obama's Council of Economic Advisors (CEA), which he has touted as showing how his health plan would reduce health costs, elaborates even more explicit and comprehensive government rationing of health care.

The CEA report says 30% of American health care is waste, which government bureaucracy is going to eliminate under Obama's health reforms. What is the difference between waste and the health care you want? Answer: a government bureaucrat.

The CEA says the government will reduce health costs by deciding for doctors and hospitals across the country what health care works and what doesn't. Even worse, it will decide what health care is cost effective, which means the government will decide whether your health care is worth the cost, not you and your doctor. This will be enforced through the payments to doctors and hospitals. Those who follow the government's dictates on your health care get paid, those that don't don't get paid.
 

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